Bay HD comments

[Ranger]

I am really not able to comprehend your numbers. I have others.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?studioid=1

For those who are too lazy to read this:

20 th Century Fox (63)
Disney / Buena Vista (78)
Lionsgate Films (46)
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (34)
New Line Cinema (5)
Paramount Pictures (43)
Sony Pictures (129)
Warner Bros. (120)

(without smaller supporting companies)

Makes for me 518.

Blu Ray is more supported. That's a fact.
And your manipulated numbers are in fact wrong!
(To be fair: Not every movie of that list is released yet, e.g. Face/Off. That's the only Blu Ray I recognized as not yet launched)

Still Blu Ray is selling better and should stay the number 1 format of the companies. Everything else would be stupid.

Blu-raystats.com is accepted as an accurate source of all titles currently released. Your totals seem to include titles that have not yet been released.

http://www.blu-raystats.com/

Blu-raystats.com shows 433 Blu-ray titles available domestically today. I eliminated the 30 Paramount and 3 Dreamworks titles as they have dropped Blu-ray support. I know you may still find some of these titles in the retail channel, but they are not making anymore of them and there is no guarantee of availability. If we include them into the combined domestic/international number we get.

Total HD DVD = 449
Total Blu-ray = 446

[chinmoku]

One example:

The Fifth Element was released twice.
The normal version and the remastered version.

The above-mentioned website only lists up one version - the remastered version. That's only one example. If I had had a closer look I would have definetely found other movies that are not listed up.

But for sure, there's not much difference between Blu Ray and HD DVD releases.

[dobyblue]

Dobyblue,

You should have disclosed your affiliation with Panasonic, no matter which
division. When you go out of your way to say glowing things about their
Blu Ray efforts, you need to give full disclosure.

Yes why don't I jsut give you my address too so we can discuss it over a cup of tea made in my Panasonic kettle?
Get real dude.

Getting back to some facts:

There are about ten studios who support each side, number of available
titles is very similar, the newest Blu Ray standalone players still don't offer the features found in even Gen 1 HD DVD players. Take the new Panasonic
Blu Ray player, the DMPBD30K, no on-board decoding of lossless audio codecs, no internet connectivity, things that even the low end HD DVD
players have offered since the beginning and do for a lot less money.

I'm still waiting to hear about one movie title available in both formats that
looks better on Blu Ray. I'd still like to know in what way Blu Ray suits
Michael Bay's movies better.

Dino

Those low end HD DVD players, do they bitstream TrueHD and dts-MA to an HDMI 1.3 recever that decodes TrueHD and dts-MA? No? Oh, but let's keep that a secret shall we? Are the HD DVD players you're referring to capable of misxing 2 1080p streams at once in the players? No? Didn't think so! Your facts are more convenient than anything else.

As for comparing movies, all Warner titles released this year have been the exact same VC-1 encode so how can it look better on one format? It's impossible.

The AVC encode of FLags of our Fathers was better on Blu-ray than the VC-1 encode on the HD DVD and the 37 Mbps VC-1 encode of "nature's Journey" on Blu-ray was better than the 26 Mbps VC-1 encode on the HD DVD.

There are two examples, case closed. Paramount were starting to encode separately for Blu-ray optimizing the format, it's no wonder HD DVD Propaganda Group got in there are stopped it before it became apparent to everyone that BD is capable of better quality.

In a side by side comparison of the film between the the AVC MPEG-4 transfer on this Blu-ray version and the VC-1 transfer on the HD DVD, it does seem that the Blu-ray/AVC encode is the tiniest bit sharper, while the HD DVD/VC-1 is the slightest bit softer.

Softer, not exactly what you want when it comes to high definition is it?

[Dino]

Those low end HD DVD players, do they bitstream TrueHD and dts-MA to an HDMI 1.3 recever that decodes TrueHD and dts-MA? No? Oh, but let's keep that a secret shall we? Are the HD DVD players you're referring to capable of misxing 2 1080p streams at once in the players? No? Didn't think so! Your facts are more convenient than anything else.

Bitstream HDMI 1.3 is great for those buying expensive new receivers, but
that is not the typical low end HD DVD buyer, on-board decoding allows
access to high resolution audio codecs for people with older receivers.

The dirty secret is that somebody buying a new Panasonic BD player will
also have to buy a new receiver to take advantage of the lossless audio
codecs on the discs.

I'm still waiting to see a true PIP capability from a BD player, instead of
having to provide two versions of the movie, one with and one without PIP,
that's a bandaid approach--not very elegant technically.

The AVC encode of FLags of our Fathers was better on Blu-ray than the VC-1 encode on the HD DVD and the 37 Mbps VC-1 encode of "nature's Journey" on Blu-ray was better than the 26 Mbps VC-1 encode on the HD DVD.

Thanks for giving me the examples I was seeking, I will compare the BD
version of Flags with the HD DVD version. I did see on that same review
that audio was superior on the HD DVD version.

I have also read about examples where the VC-1 encode was considered
superior to the AVC encode, both on HD DVD.


Dino

[Tesseract]

I know WHY you asked and it is to try to infer something, like I'm not capable of making up my own mind about which format is better because I work for Panasonic.
Well I work for a division of Panasonic Canada but I couldn't be more removed from Blu-ray if I tried and to suggest that we are a "Blu-ray" company is pretty narrow minded when you consider everything else that we make, being the #1 leader is plasma market share, having the HDMI standards lab right in Matsushita's HQ in Japan, awesome massage chairs, clock radios, DVD-Audio players, etc., etc., etc. I am involved in the POS industry, chiefly in quick service establishments like McDonalds, Wendy's, Tim Hortons, Dairy Queen, A&W, etc. There are millions of Panasonic POS units in North America alone. You can see one of the newer models, the JS-930WS, used as the registers in "Clerks II"
So forgive me if I take offence to your line of questioning as it seems to have an agenda. I'm very proud of the work Panasonic does with Blu-ray, from encoding and authoring to disc replication and standalone players, but I make up my own mind and if I thought they were doing a shite job I'd say so.

I'm also pretty sure that any employee of these companies which are also members oif the Blu-ray Disc Association would feel the same way if you talked about them in such a belittling manner.

There was nothing belittling about it. There was no implication that your choice was made for you but rather that disclosure is appropriate. If you were in the press, you'd be doing it.

It isn't a personal attack. I'm overwhlemed by the amount of facts and figures you always have at your fingertips and I couldn't imagine someone who didn't work for someone who was deeply involved in the business would have such data. I have no agenda with you or with the "war." I aknowledge the technical superiority of bluray. I have HDDVD as well as it was a cheap add on for my xbox and there are movies I can't get on bluray. I have a slight personal preference for HDDVD for reasons that are never discussed in these types of threads. HDDVD uses software decryption and has a system designed to allow the consumer to make limited copies whereas bluray has sold the studios on hardware only decyption. That and a passionate hate of everything Java, but that's my personal vendetta.

What you ought to be upset about is me questioning the ethics of you not disclosing, but that long aggressive post seems to imply that you know you operate in the gray at best.

[Ranger]

The AVC encode of FLags of our Fathers was better on Blu-ray than the VC-1 encode on the HD DVD and the 37 Mbps VC-1 encode of "nature's Journey" on Blu-ray was better than the 26 Mbps VC-1 encode on the HD DVD.

There are two examples, case closed. Paramount were starting to encode separately for Blu-ray optimizing the format, it's no wonder HD DVD Propaganda Group got in there are stopped it before it became apparent to everyone that BD is capable of better quality.

Softer, not exactly what you want when it comes to high definition is it?

Just to clarify, your company has an investment in AVC/Mpeg4 encoding equipment, but no investment in VC1. Is that correct?

[Ranger]

There was nothing belittling about it. There was no implication that your choice was made for you but rather that disclosure is appropriate. If you were in the press, you'd be doing it.

It isn't a personal attack. I'm overwhlemed by the amount of facts and figures you always have at your fingertips and I couldn't imagine someone who didn't work for someone who was deeply involved in the business would have such data. I have no agenda with you or with the "war." I aknowledge the technical superiority of bluray. I have HDDVD as well as it was a cheap add on for my xbox and there are movies I can't get on bluray. I have a slight personal preference for HDDVD for reasons that are never discussed in these types of threads. HDDVD uses software decryption and has a system designed to allow the consumer to make limited copies whereas bluray has sold the studios on hardware only decyption. That and a passionate hate of everything Java, but that's my personal vendetta.

What you ought to be upset about is me questioning the ethics of you not disclosing, but that long aggressive post seems to imply that you know you operate in the gray at best.

I believe doby is who he says he is, a Panasonic employee not involved with Blu-ray professionally. There are some folks on the Internet who have gotten way too much into studying the two formats. I count myself in that group. The facts and figures we have at our fingertips really are scary. We should probably be working in the BDA and HD DVD PRG respectively.

At the same time if you work at a company that makes either format disclosure is important, because most people are fans of the products their company produces. This is a natural and healthy behavior. If you find that you're working at a company where you don't like what they make/do, you need to get out.

In any case, I'll say for myself, I don't work for a company that in any way will benefit from the success or failure of either format, any codec, or any of the technologies in either format. I personally won't benefit from the success or failure of either format, any codec, or any of the technologies in either format (no stock in any of these companies). That's outside of my HD DVD player and discs. I'm not actually concerned about those either as I believe this market will go to universal players and both formats will continue to have hardware support in the future.

[Tesseract]

HDDVD uses software decryption and has a system designed to allow the consumer to make limited copies whereas bluray has sold the studios on hardware only decyption.

I want to correct myself. Apparently I havn't been paying attention because I understand bluray had agreed to support Managed Copy which removes what little edge HDDVD had in my mind. However, I don't believe there are any actually working devices that do managed copy on bluray or hddvd, though next years Vista Media Center refresh is scheduled to have this feature, my guess is that it would be for HDDVD only but since its apparently a standard its conceivable that it could do both.

[TheTenth]

you HD DVD lovers have so much time watching only the 10 good titles HD DVD has that you attack Dobyblue's personal life? that's weak, and shows you have no valid argument

not sure you checked the numbers :
WE: BD-76% HDD-24% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-62% HDD-38%
only 2 weeks remaining in 2007, nothing can change ...

such Directors as Spielberg, Bay, Coppola, Scorcese have chosen the support, better thing to do is take the loss dispassionately, and buy a Blu-ray player and Blu-ray movies to end the war fast and make everyone a winner.

[C6 Z06]

Blu. Need I say more!

[Don Lipper]

This question goes to Mr. Bay and everyone in this thread.

I’m writing an article about people who debate HD DVD vs. Blu-ray in the real world with people they actually know (significant others, coworkers, friends, real world clubs). Do you have any examples of stories about heated format war discussions you’ve had (or witnessed) ?

Feel free to forward this to anyone you think can help.

I’m on a tight deadline so a quick turnaround would be appreciated,
Don Lipper
Don (at) WriteTheFirstTime (dot) com

[chinmoku]

This question goes to Mr. Bay and everyone in this thread.

I’m writing an article about people who debate HD DVD vs. Blu-ray in the real world with people they actually know (significant others, coworkers, friends, real world clubs). Do you have any examples of stories about heated format war discussions you’ve had (or witnessed) ?

Feel free to forward this to anyone you think can help.

I’m on a tight deadline so a quick turnaround would be appreciated,
Don Lipper
Don (at) WriteTheFirstTime (dot) com

All I know are either Blu Ray supporters or don't know any of the new formats ^^ so there never was a debate on which format is the best.

[Ranger]

This question goes to Mr. Bay and everyone in this thread.

I’m writing an article about people who debate HD DVD vs. Blu-ray in the real world with people they actually know (significant others, coworkers, friends, real world clubs). Do you have any examples of stories about heated format war discussions you’ve had (or witnessed) ?

Feel free to forward this to anyone you think can help.

I’m on a tight deadline so a quick turnaround would be appreciated,
Don Lipper
Don (at) WriteTheFirstTime (dot) com

I think this is mostly a phenomenon of the online world. People are much more likely to get heated in a medium that disconnects you from the audible and visual cues of phone or in person conversations.

[Ranger]

I want to correct myself. Apparently I havn't been paying attention because I understand bluray had agreed to support Managed Copy which removes what little edge HDDVD had in my mind. However, I don't believe there are any actually working devices that do managed copy on bluray or hddvd, though next years Vista Media Center refresh is scheduled to have this feature, my guess is that it would be for HDDVD only but since its apparently a standard its conceivable that it could do both.

Blu-ray, HD-DVD and Managed Copy; what does it mean to us?

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Blu-ray...ean-to-us.html

Warning, this snippet from an excellent article at ArsTechnica may give your blood pressure a spike. Bear in mind, that it was written in September and Blu-ray does now support voluntary Managed Copy. But, I think you will see the other issue that comes to the surface, one that should make us very wary of the future and motivated to stay on top of this process.

Currently, HD DVD is the only next-gen format to provide for the ability to legally make copies of optical content. Dubbed "Managed Copy," HD DVD implements part of the AACS control mechanism to allow for things such as putting digital copies of a disc on a hard drive, transferring a movie (legally) to a portable player, or streaming content on a home network.
Furthermore, HD DVD makes Managed Copy mandatory: all content provided on HD DVD must give users the option of making at least one copy. Jordi Ribas, director of technical strategy for the Windows Digital Media Division, told me that while the feature is mandatory, the studios will have the option of charging for it. Ribas hopes that studios will allow at least a single copy "for free," but it may be market conditions that ultimately determine the cost of such features. The take-away, at least, is that studios have to offer something, and AACS is structured in such a way that the studios can tap into it to offer users more options.

[W12eckag3]

well ill be so free to tell you as i am a salesman in electronics specificly hifi/dvd players etc....blu-ray is winning so say bye bye to hd dvd it just wasnt ment to be. im not botherd who will win but i just know who will on pure sales numbers. on my part of the floor i got....5 blue rays 1 hd dvd and 1 combo player....guess why?..dint need to

[wingzero]

well ill be so free to tell you as i am a salesman in electronics specificly hifi/dvd players etc....blu-ray is winning so say bye bye to hd dvd it just wasnt ment to be. im not botherd who will win but i just know who will on pure sales numbers. on my part of the floor i got....5 blue rays 1 hd dvd and 1 combo player....guess why?..dint need to

Exactly. And LG has just released the cheapest BD 6x/4x burner on the market capable of reading BD,HD-DVD,DVD,CD and writing BD,DVD,CD media. It can be found for less than $400 and just 250-280Euros in Europe. BD-R 25GB blank media can be bought for just $10-12 per disc.
In Europe older BD titles have been discounted to less than 19Euros (instead of the usual 25-35Euros) and prices keep falling pretty quickly.
In the next 6-10 months the BD hardware and media will be everywhere.

[Dino]

well ill be so free to tell you as i am a salesman in electronics specificly hifi/dvd players etc....blu-ray is winning so say bye bye to hd dvd it just wasnt ment to be. im not botherd who will win but i just know who will on pure sales numbers. on my part of the floor i got....5 blue rays 1 hd dvd and 1 combo player....guess why?..dint need to

Blu Ray is winning the early days due to PS3, it is not winning the stand
alone player war. Studios will not change or drop formats solely on a
proprietary game console.

The future is about stand alone players and attach rates. Neither format
has made any real market penetration, so using such tiny software and haredware sales numbers(especially those based on game players) is premature.

Dino

[Dino]

Exactly. And LG has just released the cheapest BD 6x/4x burner on the market capable of reading BD,HD-DVD,DVD,CD and writing BD,DVD,CD media. It can be found for less than $400 and just 250-280Euros in Europe. BD-R 25GB blank media can be bought for just $10-12 per disc.
In Europe older BD titles have been discounted to less than 19Euros (instead of the usual 25-35Euros) and prices keep falling pretty quickly.
In the next 6-10 months the BD hardware and media will be everywhere.

I just burned HD DVD material on a normal DVD-R disc. The material was
DVC Pro HD captured with Final Cut Pro. No HD DVD burner was needed,
no HD DVD media needed. Image quality is hard to differentiate from the
camera master tape.

This is something that cannot be done with Blu Ray. Need a Blu Ray burner, more expensive Blu Ray player and more expensive Blue Ray media.

Meanwhile, I'm making HD DVD's from a Mac laptop with a normal DVD burner and DVD-R media. Pretty sweet especially with $200 or under
HD DVD players.

Dino

[Ranger]

I just burned HD DVD material on a normal DVD-R disc. The material was
DVC Pro HD captured with Final Cut Pro. No HD DVD burner was needed,
no HD DVD media needed. Image quality is hard to differentiate from the
camera master tape.

This is something that cannot be done with Blu Ray. Need a Blu Ray burner, more expensive Blu Ray player and more expensive Blue Ray media.

Meanwhile, I'm making HD DVD's from a Mac laptop with a normal DVD burner and DVD-R media. Pretty sweet especially with $200 or under
HD DVD players.

Dino

You also need AACS on that Blu-ray movie disc, where as you don't have to worry about it in the HD DVD format as it is optional.

[chinmoku]

And what exactly is the use of it for a normal consumer?
When the Blu Ray or HD DVD Player basis will be expanded in the near future that feature will be more or less useless.

[dobyblue]

Just to clarify, your company has an investment in AVC/Mpeg4 encoding equipment, but no investment in VC1. Is that correct?

I do not have any info as to what happens at PHL.
I am in Canada, they are in California.
The only encodes I see are the same ones you see and they're all MPEG-4

[Ranger]

And what exactly is the use of it for a normal consumer?
When the Blu Ray or HD DVD Player basis will be expanded in the near future that feature will be more or less useless.

Not at all. While the HD player installed base will grow, the installed base of recorders will grow at a slower rate (it always lags). During that period when most folks are still using DVD recordable media, it's handy to be able to author HD content on standard DVD's.

The Blu-ray approach is to force you to buy a Blu-ray recorder, use Blu-ray blanks (over $10 each for a 25GB BD-R) and to use AACS on your projects.

[wingzero]

I just burned HD DVD material on a normal DVD-R disc. The material was
DVC Pro HD captured with Final Cut Pro. No HD DVD burner was needed,
no HD DVD media needed. Image quality is hard to differentiate from the
camera master tape.

Given that a DVD-R is either 4.4GB or 8.2GB , even using H.264 AVC codec won't help you getting so high bitrates to claim that it can't be distinguished from the original HDTV source.

What does HD DVD Material mean to you ? What does HD DVD has anything to do with what you said above ? You just captured some HDTV streams and burnt it on a DVD-R.

This is something that cannot be done with Blu Ray. Need a Blu Ray burner, more expensive Blu Ray player and more expensive Blue Ray media.

?? What are you talking about ? Are you a Microsoft or Toshiba employee, perhaps ? What has HD-DVD anything to do with what you claimed above ?
What is for sure is that for burning whatever HDTV source you got on a DVD-R it must either be a very short clip or the bitrate must be really low in order to fit in a DVD-5 or DVD-9 disc. And lower the bitrate then lower the quality for sure. That's the simple reason why HD-DVD movies look worse compared to Blu-Ray ones where the studio takes advantage of and uses the available space.

Meanwhile, I'm making HD DVD's from a Mac laptop with a normal DVD burner and DVD-R media. Pretty sweet especially with $200 or under
HD DVD players.

Dino

?? What are you talking about ? Also, authoring programs allow for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray structures to be burnt on DVD-R for testing and demos purposes.

[wingzero]

Not at all. While the HD player installed base will grow, the installed base of recorders will grow at a slower rate (it always lags). During that period when most folks are still using DVD recordable media, it's handy to be able to author HD content on standard DVD's.

The Blu-ray approach is to force you to buy a Blu-ray recorder, use Blu-ray blanks (over $10 each for a 25GB BD-R) and to use AACS on your projects.

Force you to do what ? No one is forcing you to do anything. Now, claiming that there is no advantage at getting a Blu-Ray burner nowadays that LG is selling one capable of reading BD,HD-DVD,DVD,CD and writing BD,DVD,CD discs at a street price below $350 .. well, it's a pretty weird claim.
If you are not a Microsoft employee.. how could you tell that an optical media offering way more space per disc than the competition and now at a very cheap price would be worse to buy ?

[Dino]

Given that a DVD-R is either 4.4GB or 8.2GB , even using H.264 AVC codec won't help you getting so high bitrates to claim that it can't be distinguished from the original HDTV source.

What does HD DVD Material mean to you ? What does HD DVD has anything to do with what you said above ? You just captured some HDTV streams and burnt it on a DVD-R.


?? What are you talking about ? Are you a Microsoft or Toshiba employee, perhaps ? What has HD-DVD anything to do with what you claimed above ?
What is for sure is that for burning whatever HDTV source you got on a DVD-R it must either be a very short clip or the bitrate must be really low in order to fit in a DVD-5 or DVD-9 disc. And lower the bitrate then lower the quality for sure. That's the simple reason why HD-DVD movies look worse compared to Blu-Ray ones where the studio takes advantage of and uses the available space.


?? What are you talking about ? Also, authoring programs allow for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray structures to be burnt on DVD-R for testing and demos purposes.

WingZero,

I have read your preposterous postings for awhile on this thread and have
concluded that you are clueless when it comes to HD video in general and
HD optical media specifically.

First your progressive vs. interlace nonsense rants, now you are claiming
that you can burn Blu Ray bandwidth onto a DVD-R using a normal DVD-R
burner. I have never heard of this being possible.

The clip I used for testing was very brief, only 15 seconds, but I can assure you that it was HD quality and compared very favorably to the camera master.

Your theory that a VC-1 or MPEG 4 encode would yield obvious picture quality improvements between 28Mbps and 40Mps just doesn't hold water
when the above codecs were designed and optimized for low bit rates.

As to myself and Ranger being employed by Microsoft or Toshiba, well, that's about as out in left field as most of your posts. I do understand why you asked the question though, seeing how Dobyblue is a Panasonic employee. This does lead me to ask you what your connection or interest in Blu Ray might be?

By the way, could you please tell me what kind of display you are using to
judge the obvious to you picture quality differences between Blu Ray and
HD DVD, and also, what software titles you are using to make these judgments? Your player models would also be of interest, if you don't mind.

I have a DVC Pro HD camera master at 100Mbps vs. HD DVD encoded using MPEG 2 viewed on a 100" screen via a 1080P DLP projector and can't see an obvious difference, yet you can see the difference between 28 and 40Mbps with a low bit rate optimized modern codec? I'm a director of photography with 25 years of experience, what are your credentials?

Dino