I have been watching HD DVD titles for 18 months and have yet to see an
obvious compression artifact, and a year of that viewing has been with a
1080p DLP front projector on a 100" wide 2:35:1 screen at a 10' viewing distance. Differences in source material are readily apparent, but, unlike
broadcast terrestrial or satellite delivered HD, there have been no objectionable encoding artifacts to take me out of the cinematic experience.
I find it unlikely that Microsoft has personally supervised every single VC-1
encode for every HD DVD title, but I could be wrong.
Did you know that Sony's new professional HD acquisition format, XDCAM HD, using blue laser optical disc media in $15-25K camcorders, has a normal record bitrate of 25 Mbps CBR and optional 35 Mbps VBR using MPEG 2 long GOP encoding? This is for professional production, not consumer distribution. Yet somehow Sony has decided that 48 Mbps is necessary for a consumer player?
I don't think it makes a lot of sense and trust my eyes to tell me that
with a low bit rate optimized codec, VC-1 and AVC/MPEG4 work very well
with HD DVD's data rate limitations, which to my mind are not really limitations at all, but designed with these codecs in mind--we certainly
know VC-1 was in the original plans.
incase some of you didnt know, its all up to warner bros. that will end the format war.
If they go to blu-ray, hd is screwed. And microsoft will loose perhaps billions from their 100million dollar check give aways for company to stick with hd.
Then sony and their ps3 will kick ass, they will make billions
But if warner bros. goes to hd-dvd...
You know what would happen.
I dont see how hd will last longer than blu ray, blu ray just has more space, to let developers put more and more ideas in, and longer sequences.
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PIXEL SHIFTING AND UP-REZZING NOT SPOKEN HERE
Typical high-end HD camcorders have 2.1M pixel sensors and record with 3:1:1 color sub-sampled video at up to 30fps. We deliver 12M pixels at up to 60fps and record wide dynamic range and color space 12 bit native RAW. Thatís more than 5 times the amount of information available every second and a vastly superior recording quality. Donít need all that data for your workflow? Dial it back, and keep all the other advantages of the Mysterium ô Super 35mm cine sized (24.4◊13.7mm) sensor. You get the same breathtaking Depth of Field and selective focus as found in film cameras using equivalent 35mm P/L mount lenses. Mysterium ô boasts greater than 66db Dynamic Range thanks to its large 29 sq. micron pixels. And 12,065,000 pixels deliver resolution that can only be called Ultra High Definition.
as the Panavision Genesis(Sony built with HDCAM SR recording most often),
and Arri D20.
The Red quote about "pixel shifting and up-rezzing" not spoken here is a direct jab at Panasonic and its pseudo HD cameras which play tricks to
make SD chipsets into HD or 720p chipsets into 1080i.
Whatever 4K or 2K lossy codec is used for Red acquisition, chances are
it will still end up on D5 or HDCAM or HDCAM SR for HDM mastering.
Getting back to VC-1, it can offer resolutions up to digital cinema 2048X1536 pixel count. For main profile 1080X1920 at 30p, it is designed
for a bit rate of 20Mbps. This fits perfectly into HD DVD's bandwidth specs,
while leaving plenty of room for multiple audio tracks.
The only reason Blu Ray has higher bandwidth is because it was anticipated
that MPEG2 and uncompressed PCM would be the designated encode formats. Meanwhile, HD DVD was designed with modern video and audio
codecs in mind--those that are optimized for low bit rates, requiring half
the bit rate of MPEG2 video or less than half of uncompressed PCM audio.
I'd sure love to hear about one movie title that is available in both HD DVD
and Blu Ray where the latter is considered superior in image quality.
In any case, if I hadn't seen HD DVD encodes with an average bit rates of 12-14 mbps and with peak bit rates of 18-20 mbps projected on an 8' wide screen with a 1080p projector I suppose I could buy into your argument. To contrast Don Eklund from Sony pictures has told us that Mpeg2 needs an average of 18 mbps with a peak rate of 30 mbps for great results. Do you really doubt that AVC/Mpeg4 and VC1 can produce the same great results at about 2/3rd the bandwidth? Should we pull in the encoding geeks from Doom9 to prove this point?
Here's my perspective, Blu-ray fans need people to believe that the bandwidth makes a difference (besides visible evidence to the contrary). It's the only technical point that Blu-ray has left to trumpet over HD DVD. How else can you convince people to pay more for Blu-ray players with less features and more DRM layers than HD DVD players?
the first place.
Professionals who should know better tout Panasonic's DVC Pro 100 because it has 100 Mbps, even though at 24p it's really more like 40 Mbps,
a ten year old codec using 8 bit DCT compression--not exactly cutting edge. Some think Sony's HDCAM is superior because it's bit rate is 135 Mbps, they forget that the color space is 3:1:1 and it doesn't record full
raster, only 1080X1440. The Panasonic fans who always talk about the
100 Mbps DVC Pro HD will be in for a shock when they see that Panasonic
is migrating to AVC Intra which offers 10 bit recording, full raster and 50 Mbps. This is studio master quality recording in a camcorder, the kind
previously seen in Panasonic's very expensive 235 Mbps D5 format.
Blu Ray is the same thing, all the talk of the higher bandwidth is so meaningless in the world of modern low bit rate optimized codecs. They
are stuck in an MPEG2 time warp with a format that is more complex,
behind on interactive features and with no internet capability--
a feature that 80,000 Transformers HD DVD disc owners used--lagging
in advanced audio codecs not being encoded into most early titles, many players with no onboard decoding even if the titles had the lossless codecs and every standalone player sold before October 31 being obsolete.
And I keep waiting for somebody to give me an example of a title available
on both formats where Blu Ray looks better. I keep waiting for Mr. Bay to
tell us why he thinks Blu Ray suits his films better--we know it's not the
interactive or net download capabilities and the supposed bit rate advantage
is just not a real world perceptible advantage.
I've had a Samsung BD-UP5000 combo player on order since August, so I plan on being format neutral very soon. I feel both formats were not ready for prime time at inception and HD DVD was very late with 1080/24p as well as their discs not being very robust for rental usage, too many firmware upgrades to fix dumb little HDMI and disc authoring glitches, one machine that does good 1080/60p but not 24p, another that is the opposite, most
that do neither.
I want the war to go away and let us concentrate on trying to make HD optical media a success in the market. I just don't like it when both sides
spout hyperbole without much technical knowledge. Regrettably, this includes a couple of well known directors.
Last edited by Dino; 12-11-2007 at 01:13 AM.
Let me try again. Dobyblue, who do you work for?
Sony CEO Damns Blu-ray With Faint Praise -- Again
Washington, D.C. (December 11, 2007) -- Sony's Howard Stringer is at it again.
The chief executive of Sony, the top supporter of the Blu-ray high-def DVD format, tells the Associated Press that he doesn't know whether Blu-ray or HD DVD will win the format war.
Stringer said he believes Blu-ray is winning, but suggested that his company's format fave is hardly running away with the race.
"We have momentum," he told the wire service this week. "But that's all we have at the moment."
Last month, Stringer said in a speech in New York that the battle between Blu-ray and HD DVD had become a "stalemate." (Blu-ray and HD DVD are rival formats competing for the new high-def disc audience.)
Saying it's a "difficult fight," Stringer even openly speculated what Sony would do if HD DVD prevailed. (Basically, stop including Blu-ray players in Play Station 3 game consoles.)
The comments ignited a storm of controversy at blogs and Internet message boards with some posters saying that Stringer seemed to be throwing in the towel.
The Sony chief seemed to try to make amends a few weeks later in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter.
He told the publication that Blu-ray has the "scale" to eventually defeat HD DVD.
The Sony executive noted that four major studios, including Disney and Fox, are exclusively supporting Blu-ray over HD DVD. (Two majors are backing HD DVD exclusively; studios that back one format over another only release titles in that format.)
But now Stringer appears to have reversed course once again, saying all that Blu-ray has is "momentum."
Stringer's remarks are at odds with other Blu-ray backers such as executives at Panasonic who have said Blu-ray has already won.
His latest comments could fuel more speculation that Sony would be open to a single format negotiation with Toshiba, the leading supporter of HD DVD.
Maybe Howard Stringer had just finished reading this when the reporter from AP showed up.
HDTV Intenders to Significantly Impact High-Def DVD Battle
While this trend could in theory benefit either Blu-ray or HD DVD, the data suggests otherwise. Among HDTV Intenders who are likely to purchase a new high-def DVD player in the next six months, 43% prefer HD DVD, 27% prefer Blu-ray, and 30% are undecided.
it's been clear to me from the start that Paramount thought about the future : they knew Blu-ray would win in less than 2 years, thus getting the money and going back to Blu-ray to sell movies, of course setting a clause that if HD DVD fails they can do whatever they want
Let's review all of the content currently available (not counting Adult titles which favor HD DVD).....
Ally Distribution (1)
Alternative Distribution (1)
HD Net (4)
Opus Arte (2)
Picture Company (1)
Surround Records (1)
Buena Vista (53)
LRS Media (1)
Razor Digital (4)
Universal Music (1)
Bandai Visual (2 Blu-ray, 4 HD DVD)
BCI (1 Blu-ray, 1 HD DVD)
Concert Hot Spot (4 Blu-ray, 4 HD DVD)
Digital Leisure (1 Blu-ray, 1 HD DVD)
Discovery Channel (5 Blu-ray, 5 HD DVD)
DVD Internationl (8 Blu-ray, 9 HD DVD)
Eagle Rock (6 Blu-ray, 4 HD DVD)
HD Environments (1 Blu-ray, 1 HD DVD)
Interscope (1 Blu-ray, 1 HD DVD)
Koch (2 Blu-ray, 2 HD DVD)
Magnolia (11 Blu-ray, 7 HD DVD)
New Line (1 Blu-ray, 0 HD DVD)
Warner (100 Blu-ray titles, 122 HD DVD titles)
Total titles HD DVD = 375
Total titles Blu-ray = 400
Counting imported movies from xploitedcinema.com
13 Blu-ray titles
74 HD DVD titles
Total titles HD DVD = 449
Total titles Blu-ray = 413
Last edited by Ranger; 12-12-2007 at 09:20 PM.
I am really not able to comprehend your numbers. I have others.
For those who are too lazy to read this:
20 th Century Fox (63)
Disney / Buena Vista (78)
Lionsgate Films (46)
New Line Cinema (5)
Paramount Pictures (43)
Sony Pictures (129)
Warner Bros. (120)
(without smaller supporting companies)
Makes for me 518.
Blu Ray is more supported. That's a fact.
And your manipulated numbers are in fact wrong!
(To be fair: Not every movie of that list is released yet, e.g. Face/Off. That's the only Blu Ray I recognized as not yet launched)
Still Blu Ray is selling better and should stay the number 1 format of the companies. Everything else would be stupid.
Last edited by chinmoku; 12-13-2007 at 04:24 AM.
Well I work for a division of Panasonic Canada but I couldn't be more removed from Blu-ray if I tried and to suggest that we are a "Blu-ray" company is pretty narrow minded when you consider everything else that we make, being the #1 leader is plasma market share, having the HDMI standards lab right in Matsushita's HQ in Japan, awesome massage chairs, clock radios, DVD-Audio players, etc., etc., etc. I am involved in the POS industry, chiefly in quick service establishments like McDonalds, Wendy's, Tim Hortons, Dairy Queen, A&W, etc. There are millions of Panasonic POS units in North America alone. You can see one of the newer models, the JS-930WS, used as the registers in "Clerks II"
So forgive me if I take offence to your line of questioning as it seems to have an agenda. I'm very proud of the work Panasonic does with Blu-ray, from encoding and authoring to disc replication and standalone players, but I make up my own mind and if I thought they were doing a shite job I'd say so.
I'm also pretty sure that any employee of these companies which are also members oif the Blu-ray Disc Association would feel the same way if you talked about them in such a belittling manner.
Board of Directors
Twentieth Century Fox
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
China Hualu Group Co., Ltd.
CMC Magnetics Corporation
Coding Technologies GmbH
Cryptography Research Inc.
DATARIUS Technologies GmbH
Daxon Technology Inc.
D-Box Technologies Inc.
Deluxe Media Services Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.
Dreamer Co., Ltd.
Eclipse Data Technologies
Funai Electric Co., Ltd.
Gibson Guitar Corp.
LITE-ON IT Corporation
Magnum Semiconductor, Inc.
Meridian Audio Ltd.
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd.
Mitsui Chemicals Inc.
Monster Cable Products
Moser Baer India Limited
NEC Electronics Corporation
Prodisc Technology Inc.
Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd.
Ricoh Co., Ltd.
ShibaSoku Co. Ltd.
Sigma Designs Inc.
Silicon Integrated Systems Corporation
Sony BMG Music Entertainment
Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd.,
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
Zentek Technology Japan, Inc.
Alpine Electronics Inc.
Arima Devices Corporation
ashampoo GmbH & Co. KG
Avid Development GmbH
Brickbox Digital Media
Cinram Manufacturing Inc.
CustomFlix Labs, Inc.
Custom Technology Inc.
D&M holdings, Inc.
Daewoo Electronics Corporation
Daikin Industries, Ltd.
Elpida Memory, Inc.
Expert Magnetics Corp.
Falcon Technologies International
Fujitsu Ten Ltd.
GalleryPlayer Media Networks
Global Machinery Co., Ltd.
Gowell Electronic Limited
Hie Electronics, Inc.
Hoei Sangyo Co., Ltd
INFODISC Technology Co., Ltd.
Info Source Multi Media Ltd.
Iwatsu Test Instruments
Kobe Steel Co. Ltd.
Konica Minolta Opto Inc.
Lauda Co. Ltd.
Lead Data Inc.
LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP
Linn Products Ltd.
Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd.
Must Technology Co., Ltd.
MX Production Services
NEC Personal Products Ltd.
Newtech Infosystems Inc.
NTT Electronics Corporation
OC Oerlikon Balzer AG
Omnibus Japan Inc.
Online Media Technologies Ltd.
Ono Sokki Co., Ltd.
Optodisc Technology Corporation
Origin Electric Co., Ltd.
PoINT Software & Systems GmbH
Pony Canyon Enterprise
Primera Technology, Inc.
Quanta Storage Inc.
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Dr. Schwab Inspection Technology GmbH
Targray Technology International Inc.
Teijin Chemicals Ltd.
Texas Instruments, Inc.
Toei Video Company Ltd.
Toho Company, Ltd.
Toppan Printing Co., Ltd.
TOPTICA Photonics AG
Universal Music Group, Inc.
Yokogawa Electric Corporation
1K Studios, LLC
Last edited by dobyblue; 12-13-2007 at 12:29 PM.
Fortunately some of their movies can be imported on Blu like Hannibal Rising, Lucky # Slevin, Arthur and the Invisibles, to name a few.
You should have disclosed your affiliation with Panasonic, no matter which
division. When you go out of your way to say glowing things about their
Blu Ray efforts, you need to give full disclosure.
Getting back to some facts:
There are about ten studios who support each side, number of available
titles is very similar, the newest Blu Ray standalone players still don't offer the features found in even Gen 1 HD DVD players. Take the new Panasonic
Blu Ray player, the DMPBD30K, no on-board decoding of lossless audio codecs, no internet connectivity, things that even the low end HD DVD
players have offered since the beginning and do for a lot less money.
I'm still waiting to hear about one movie title available in both formats that
looks better on Blu Ray. I'd still like to know in what way Blu Ray suits
Michael Bay's movies better.