Bay HD comments

[wingzero]

How is that a problem? Either you forgot to wrap up your thought or I'm missing something. People are going to be more likely to download when they don't have to drive to a store to pick something up, and when its cheaper, because it no doubt will be. The perception is that having a physical product is where most of the cost comes from, and prices reflect that.

Are you suggesting studios are going to be less likely to go strictly digital downloads because of a cash revenue of people who buy and dont watch? Thats kind of silly, the same could be said for someone downloading it and not watching it, but that wont happen until internet speeds are faster.

In terms of XBOX Live, what your talking about is strictly for movies. Movies on XBL is essentially a rental service where you download 6-7gig 720p HD movies. It's different for everything else. once you download it, it's yours.

You are wrong. DRM technologies have been invented to prevent the customer from really owning any full usage rights over the protected contents. The copyright holder can easily revoke encryption keys and make your payment void for whatever reason. The majority of DRM standards in use are pretty dynamic and can be updated over time as needed.
Recently there was a case of people having bought MP3 music titles, if I remember correctly, and having found all their money was lost because the shop selling them closed the service and all the keys for DRM couldn't be authenticated anymore thus making all paying customers look like thieves to the DRM system and unable to use the content they paid for.

[TIMtationX]

36 pages????

[xAgonyxScenex]

You are wrong. DRM technologies have been invented to prevent the customer from really owning any full usage rights over the protected contents. The copyright holder can easily revoke encryption keys and make your payment void for whatever reason. The majority of DRM standards in use are pretty dynamic and can be updated over time as needed.
Recently there was a case of people having bought MP3 music titles, if I remember correctly, and having found all their money was lost because the shop selling them closed the service and all the keys for DRM couldn't be authenticated anymore thus making all paying customers look like thieves to the DRM system and unable to use the content they paid for.

ya sure...maybe for some small 'nobody' site that your buying from. You sort of take your chances anytime you buy anything from a 'nobody' place. What are the odds Microsoft is going to suddenly say "fuck you..i know you just bought an episode of Family Guy...but its not yours now!!" Highly unlikely i would assume...as would be the most cases with major outlets.

[The Drizzle]

ya sure...maybe for some small 'nobody' site that your buying from. You sort of take your chances anytime you buy anything from a 'nobody' place. What are the odds Microsoft is going to suddenly say "fuck you..i know you just bought an episode of Family Guy...but its not yours now!!" Highly unlikely i would assume...as would be the most cases with major outlets.

Bluray supporters Disney, Fox and Sony have all been supporters of that idea and have even tried a video format based on it. Sony has led the industry in trying to get the fair use laws changed in their favor.

[Bumblebee1983]

Here's what I've observed from [edit] the only previous format war I've been through [edit]:

This format war between blu ray and HD DVD may be here for a while. Think about it: Compact disks are still around even though MP3 downloads have put a serious crunch on that market. Thanks to Apple/Mac for that.

In the meantime, there should be an affordable dual format player put out on the market for those of us who do not want to buy two seperate players at a cost of nearly $800 or so.

There's my brilliant two cents worth, take it or leave it.

[The Drizzle]

Here's what I've observed from [edit] the only previous format war I've been through [edit]:

This format war between blu ray and HD DVD may be here for a while. Think about it: Compact disks are still around even though MP3 downloads have put a serious crunch on that market. Thanks to Apple/Mac for that.

In the meantime, there should be an affordable dual format player put out on the market for those of us who do not want to buy two seperate players at a cost of nearly $800 or so.

There's my brilliant two cents worth, take it or leave it.

That's what the Warner guy said he expected. We actually need triple format players anyway, because DVD isn't going away anytime soon.

[bayisthewaytogo]

[quote=dobyblue;5990]

Blu-ray disc sales vs. HD DVD sales
USA - 2:1
Europe - 3:1
Australia - 5.6:1
Japan 9:1

Say bye-bye to HD DVD - by January 2009 the better format will prevail. More bandwidth, more capacity, more studio support, more big name director support (Bay, Spielberg), more CE support.

Toshiba has priced out all other manufacturers from HD DVD standalone hardware. No-one else will make one! There's no money in it.

Blu-ray is going to win this war and anyone that tries to convince you differently has an agenda and quite possibly works for Microsoft. There is no future for high definition media as long as there are two formats around.

quote]

yes, thats very true, blue ray will prevail to be the #1 dvd format.

do you think developers can keep using multiple disks to put their games on? blue ray can hold almost 2x that amount.

In the future, developers will turn probbly to blue ray, to express their movies and titles in a better way. They'lle be able to make them larger, with tons of more action, well, heres a quote from Sony Playstation 3.

"Blu-ray media, stores up to five times more data than DVDs, providing a larger canvas for unbelievable graphics and unprecedented interaction; Blu-ray drive also plays Blu-ray movies for a high-definition experience with your favorite films

---

Why is Blu-ray Disc important to gaming?
With Blu-ray Disc, the PLAYSTATION 3 system offers game developers unprecedented power to express their creativity and a larger canvas to create a level of interaction, sophistication, and reality that has never existed in gaming. As a result, consumers can experience a whole new generation of high-definition gaming."

This mite not convince some of you, and the downfall of this is that it costs alot more money to put titles on blue ray, 1 reason is that its newer, so obviously it could cost more than hd dvd. and Technlology only gets better, even though its harder to put movies/games on it, it wont be as hard in the future.

And is it cuse of the technology the blu ray has? it can read with a redlazerjet from the ps3(something like that) Yet the ps3 has the potential to go to 4d graphics, *with* the use of blu-ray. (yes, 4d graphics exist, type in ps3productions on youtube to get some info on that, part 2, im not gonna explain it, takes too long)

Blu ray will be the best format of choice in the future, do you really think that hd dvd is better? blu ray is a huge deal, i know 50gb of space is a @#$% load of memory, im sure no game title/movie will use that max amount for a while. but if you think about it, any maxed out blue ray title vs hd dvd, blu ray wil win. im sorda getting of topic here...

I just dont think too many developers will be making titles on hd-dvd for another 5 or so years, they'lle need more and more space to put their titles on in the future, thats how it is.

People will buy more and more blu ray players (if they dont have a ps3) in the future. They can have both players to get it all over with.

I just think that blu ray will go further than hd-dvd, you have to think deeply on who will turn to what, and why.

(and i got a feeling there are some people that work for Microsoft, and are getting hired to support hd-dvd, and shut down blu ray, on the forums, and definently all over the internet )

[Purple Format]

No way in hell am I reading 35+ pages. As a supporter for BOTH formats, hence my name on here. I get nothing but pissed when reading you whiners posts (aka "the format war" and each camps respective fanboys). Even more pissed that Bay is a whiney little shit (I refuse to kiss anyones ass, even if it is their own board, sorry, not my fault if someone can't take the bad with the good). For christs sake, you still get paid either way. Quiet honestly, if I were an exec at Paramount and even after going both formats, I wouldn't want you directing a sequel because of such tirades

To me, there is no "superior" format. At the start of it all, HDDVD had the better quality, but BR has caught up (take the initisl release and the reissue of The Fifth Element for example). I have at least rented a couple of movies that are on both formats, and could tell neary the difference between the two. The only time I really buy a movie for its respective format is if its exclusive to that format. I will admit that if its dual format, then I usually get the BR, only for the fact that my 360 doesn't have HDMI out whereas my PS3 does ( hell, my Netflix que is mostly BR because of that). At this point I don't give two shits worth who wins, as I have players for both. And plan on getting a dual format player when they come down.

Hell, while we're at it, lets rekindle the debates that raged over DVD vs DIVX. No not the video codec, the pay for play DVD format that Circuit City once pushed. And if you still do think of only the codec, then you're too young...

[Mukha]

Do you guys understand that there are tens of millions of displays that will not accept 1080p and/or have no better than component (not that component is bad) and can not have new cabling pulled to them. I personally have hundreds of installs like that. HDMI wasn't an option for 12 of the 15 years I've been installing/designing. Of course if you have a display that will take 1080p that is the best option in most cases, but if not an A1, A2, or A3 is just as good as a PS3 or the Pioneers. JUst a little perspective.

I'm not sure who this is directed at but I'll give it a shot anyway. The point I was trying to make in my attempt at explaining pulldown/pullup frame rate conversion was that the output of an A2/A3 is no way a compromise so yes I agree with you . You can recover the 1080p24 source perfectly as long as the display correctly distinguishes between true 1080i content and frame rate converted content and correctly applies either deinterlacing or IVTC. The problem here is that a lot of TVs don't correctly apply deinterlacing or IVTC, here's a test from 2006 of 61 HDTVs where 80% of them failed to correctly apply IVTC.

HDMI vs component is not a format specific issue. Both formats are limited to 1080i by the AACS provisions as the maximum allowed resolution over analog outputs and this output can be limited even further if a disc is authored with the Image Constraint Token set. HDMI hasn't been popular with installers because of it's lack of a positive locking connector and also the HDCP handshaking issues, a lot of installers choose to use component anyway even if HDMI is available to avoid these exact problems.

[wingzero]

No way in hell am I reading 35+ pages. As a supporter for BOTH formats, hence my name on here. I get nothing but pissed when reading you whiners posts (aka "the format war" and each camps respective fanboys). Even more pissed that Bay is a whiney little shit (I refuse to kiss anyones ass, even if it is their own board, sorry, not my fault if someone can't take the bad with the good). For christs sake, you still get paid either way. Quiet honestly, if I were an exec at Paramount and even after going both formats, I wouldn't want you directing a sequel because of such tirades

To me, there is no "superior" format. At the start of it all, HDDVD had the better quality, but BR has caught up (take the initisl release and the reissue of The Fifth Element for example). I have at least rented a couple of movies that are on both formats, and could tell neary the difference between the two. The only time I really buy a movie for its respective format is if its exclusive to that format. I will admit that if its dual format, then I usually get the BR, only for the fact that my 360 doesn't have HDMI out whereas my PS3 does ( hell, my Netflix que is mostly BR because of that). At this point I don't give two shits worth who wins, as I have players for both. And plan on getting a dual format player when they come down.

Hell, while we're at it, lets rekindle the debates that raged over DVD vs DIVX. No not the video codec, the pay for play DVD format that Circuit City once pushed. And if you still do think of only the codec, then you're too young...

Insulting Mr.Bay like you just did only shows how much you are unable to behave in a civil manner. What is that, a noglobal type of attitude, perhaps? I think you need to apologize to Mr.Bay for being so rude here.
Learn how to deal with people in a civil manner first. Being civil doesn't mean kissing anyone bottom parts, it's what allows to human society and democracy to exist. You should respect others even if you don't agree with them instead of insulting and using foul language like that.

[Ranger]

And is it cuse of the technology the blu ray has? it can read with a redlazerjet from the ps3(something like that) Yet the ps3 has the potential to go to 4d graphics, *with* the use of blu-ray. (yes, 4d graphics exist, type in ps3productions on youtube to get some info on that, part 2, im not gonna explain it, takes too long)

That is great stuff. The redlazerjet in the PS3 is incredibly cool because it supports 4d. Do you need special glasses for 4d? I've also heard that the PS3 not only let's you watch movies from the past, but movies from the future that haven't even been shot yet. It really is a modern wonder.

[Ranger]

I'm not sure who this is directed at but I'll give it a shot anyway. The point I was trying to make in my attempt at explaining pulldown/pullup frame rate conversion was that the output of an A2/A3 is no way a compromise so yes I agree with you . You can recover the 1080p24 source perfectly as long as the display correctly distinguishes between true 1080i content and frame rate converted content and correctly applies either deinterlacing or IVTC. The problem here is that a lot of TVs don't correctly apply deinterlacing or IVTC, here's a test from 2006 of 61 HDTVs where 80% of them failed to correctly apply IVTC.

HDMI vs component is not a format specific issue. Both formats are limited to 1080i by the AACS provisions as the maximum allowed resolution over analog outputs and this output can be limited even further if a disc is authored with the Image Constraint Token set. HDMI hasn't been popular with installers because of it's lack of a positive locking connector and also the HDCP handshaking issues, a lot of installers choose to use component anyway even if HDMI is available to avoid these exact problems.

That's all well and good. If you own or are buying a brand new 1080p TV you have to keep in mind that you may be better off with a 1080p player instead of a 1080i player.

On the other hand most people own HDTV's that can accept 1080i but not 1080p. In fact if you're out shopping for a new Plasma HDTV right now, over 80% of the TV's you're looking at can't accept a 1080p input.

[Bumblebee1983]

That's what the Warner guy said he expected. We actually need triple format players anyway, because DVD isn't going away anytime soon.

Good point. I had forgotten about regular DVDs.

[Johnny LaPhlegm]

But that said - I don't a care about this format war because I have both formats in my screening room - I'm just filling you in on what people deep in the film industry feel ultimately is going on -
Transformers looks great even in DVD!!

Thanks Mr Bay. While this format war may or may not speed up digital downloads, it has certainly driven prices down to the point where home theater enthusiasts can get both. Pick up a $399 PS3 and a $199 Toshiba HD-A3 and watch all the high def movies!

[Beadle]

Fear not. As far as HD-DVD is concerned, you need look only to the last most recent quarterly NPD standalone sales figures, which showed HD-DVD with a huge 53% to 44% lead and, separately, with a 69% sales lead in Europe. And what do you think the HD-DVD equivalent figures will be for THIS quarter ending this month, which will include the 90,000-plus HD-DVD one-day player sale? Universal, Paramount and Warners have all said they discount GAME machine sales and do not want to tie their financial fortunes to them. Europeans are no less price conscious than are Americans, and it is just a matter of time that the intrinsic cost advantages of the HD-DVD format will provide the same result over the pond as here. All together now, SAY BYE-BYE TO BLU-RAY!

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Thank you all for agreeing with me….

I think you MRSMITH are defiantly a Microsoft user or employee

Thanks to the technical information from dobyblue and wingzeroit it now shows that you are lying and probably have a dodgy HDTV player. Why are you calling this HDTV format the successor? The technical information on any website will prove that its resolution can actually be lower then 1080i. How can you call it a high definition player? I think everyone needs to know what Microsoft is doing and how they are, well basically sore LOSERS!!!!

Going back to Mr. Bay’s response to my first message I am shocked to hear that they are handing out cheques like that to new releases. Also Mr. Bay why are you accepting these cheques or I think another word for it is bribes?

This holiday will show the successor and this stupid format battle can stop!

Microsoft does not have a better system then the Sony and they never will because of there low and shoddy format resolution and the crap workmanship on the x-box and there supposed new Elite system. Did anyone hear the interview with the senior Microsoft spokesman? Who was basically promoting the Elite X-Box system and when asked “have corrections been made to the machine and the constant mechanically parts that keep breaking for this new system? He replied…. “Errrrrr Errrrr I don’t think so”.

Hopefully Microsoft will fall on its stupid face and admit defeat in this format battle… I pray for the day when x-box’s new machine is released with Blu-Ray capabilities.

[nelson]

Also Mr. Bay why are you accepting these cheques or I think another word for it is bribes?

You're becoming fucking annoying.

Read: MICHAEL HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PARAMOUNT'S DECISION TO GO WITH THE HD DVD.

Your suggestion that Michael accepted a bribe from Microsoft is both sickening, stupid, and immature.

Please stop now.

[Ranger]

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Thank you all for agreeing with me….

I think you MRSMITH are defiantly a Microsoft user or employee

Thanks to the technical information from dobyblue and wingzeroit it now shows that you are lying and probably have a dodgy HDTV player. Why are you calling this HDTV format the successor? The technical information on any website will prove that its resolution can actually be lower then 1080i......

Geez, first we get one Blu-ray supporter arguing with another Blu-ray supporter for pages on whether it's possible to do de-interlace and IVTC on a 1080i60 signal to get back to the original 1080p24. For the record Darinp2 is correct, and he is far more patient than I am. I have a lot of respect for Darinp2 despite the fact that we have different format preferences. By the way, you can get HD DVD players with both 1080i and 1080p output.

Now we've got a Blu-ray supporter attacking Michael Bay. You should be thanking him. Who else in Hollywood has been as vocal about Blu-ray as Michael?

As Nelson said, Michael isn't getting paid for HD DVD exclusivity of Transformers. For the record it was Toshiba that gave money to Paramount. Toshiba acknowledged that they provided marketing money to Paramount as part of their decision to drop Blu-ray. Paramount in turn has stated that they did receive marketing funds as part of their move, but this was not the primary reason behind their decision. You can choose to believe what you want on the subject. Personally I think that if it was purely about the money, Sony would have gladly paid more to have Paramount and Dreamworks go Blu-ray exclusive.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-dvd-coup.html

The end result of their testing, Bell told me, was the assessment that HD DVD is simply a "very consistent, stable specification." He said that all HD DVD players have had to meet the same specifications and that, in his estimation, HD DVD's specifications are more suited for the current market. Blu-ray, on the other hand, has been a moving target, and this could end up hurting early adopters who might be chagrined to find significant differences between players.


For instance, Bell expressed appreciation for the fact that all HD DVD players support a minimum standard of connectivity and interactive features, something that is not true for Blu-ray. He also noted that the moving feature set on Blu-ray players meant that programming for interactive content could not be done in a way that was guaranteed to work with all Blu-ray players. A feature present on one might be absent in another (compare the feature set of 300 on HD DVD versus that of Blu-ray). Praising Microsoft's HDi interactivity platform, Bell said it was "very full, with a very wide scope," yet it was easy to work with and would provide a consistent experience regardless of HD DVD player used.


Bell also considers HD DVD's heritage to be an asset; coming out of the DVD Forum, HD DVD was designed to be the true successor to DVD, and Bell noted that HD DVD was indeed less expensive to manufacture using already existing manufacturing techniques.

[Beadle]

You're becoming fucking annoying.

Read: MICHAEL HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PARAMOUNT'S DECISION TO GO WITH THE HD DVD.

Your suggestion that Michael accepted a bribe from Microsoft is both sickening, stupid, and immature.

Please stop now.

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Nelson I have already sent you a message on the main page before the link to this replies page.

Yes I understand this and Mr. Bay had no role in the decision about what formats.

As I said before I apologies and withdraw my last response

[sphdle1]

Nelson, I know this is off topic, but who's the girl in your Avatar?

[dobyblue]

Doby, you know better. I posted recently that Sony's Mpeg2 encoding equipment investment was a big reason for making sure Blu-ray had extra storage and bandwidth. It was needed to allow Mpeg2 to deliver the same sort of image quality that can be achieved with AVC/Mpeg4 and VC1.

As further proof points on this we saw Sony Pictures release all of their titles in Mpeg2 in 2006 and Don Eklund telling us that Mpeg2 was better than AVC/Mpeg4 and VC1. Now that Sony is shipping new AVC/Mpeg4 encoding equipment, they no longer need to sell us on the superiority of Mpeg2......they are now mostly releasing in AVC/Mpeg4.

Funny coincidence huh? When they only have Mpeg2 encoding equipment to sell, it's the best codec there is. Now that they have AVC/Mpeg4 encoding equipment for sale......well you get the picture.

I've posted this all before, but I'm going to assume you didn't catch it as this thread moves fast.

I also know that Panasonic always intended to use AVC on Blu-ray and that the sweet spot for VC-1 and AVC according to R&B Films Executive Producer and President Richard Casey is 26-28 Mbps, which doesn't leave much room for multiple language tracks, PIP, lossless audio or any of the other treats we expect with HD discs without sacrificing bandwidth, which in turn sacrifices picture quality.

Basing your opinions on Blu-ray on what Sony says alone does a disservice to all the other major powers involved in Blu-ray Disc.

[dobyblue]

?? Are you serious ? For you interlaced and progressive are the same thing ? Even cheap $30 chinese DVD players do have motion adaptive deinterlacing of some sort.

That's completely irrelevant ot the current discussion.

[dobyblue]

Telecine/Inverse Telecine can't reconstruct anything without loss. It works by discarding frame/fields and doubling some in the process based on the source and target frame rates.

It discards the frames that were only there to keep the timing correct.

[Dino]

the sweet spot for VC-1 and AVC according to R&B Films Executive Producer and President Richard Casey is 26-28 Mbps, which doesn't leave much room for multiple language tracks, PIP, lossless audio or any of the other treats we expect with HD discs without sacrificing bandwidth, which in turn sacrifices picture quality.

Is the 26-28 Mbps the sweet spot for the raw video stream or inclusive of audio tracks as well?

Toshiba's original HD DVD demo disc was authored at only 12 Mbps in VC-1,
and it looked pretty artifact free.

I maintain that HD DVD's maximum bit rate of 36.55 Mbps is more than enough head room to provide pristine 1080/24p titles using VC-1 or AVC
codecs.

Sony designed Blu Ray with a higher transfer rate with MPEG2 and PCM
uncompressed audio in mind. It does not offer a perceptible difference in picture or sound quality when using modern codecs for video and audio.

Dino

[dobyblue]

26~28 - That's just for the picture, not the audio.

While HD DVD's raw data rate is 36.55 Mbps, the maximum video rate is 29 Mbps and the spec'd maximum data rate for HD DVD-ROM is 30.09 Mbps.
Much like Blu-ray uses 1.5x which is 54.825 Mbps, but BD-ROM discs are only spec'd for 48 Mbps, 40 Mbps of which is the maximum video rate.

There is no doubt that Microshiba can make HD DVD look good at low bitrates, but again this is what Amir Majidimehr stated to Richard Casey - that only they can get the maximum out of VC-1.

No doubt they did that disc for Toshiba. Now look at how many releases will come out each month for HD DVD to reach mass market adoption with all studios releasing and answer whether or not you think MS willbe capable of doing ALL those encodes for ALL the studios just to have them looking artifact free.

Meanwhile there are several companies already who seem to be able to get "the best" out of AVC/MPEG-4 encoders - Panasonic are doing amazing work for Fox and Disney with theirs.

Bandiwidth is an argument HD DVD doesn't want you to believe until it's too late, even a Warner compresisonist posting on the AVS Forum agreed that this was HD DVD's biggest weakness.

[nelson]

Nelson, I know this is off topic, but who's the girl in your Avatar?

Natalie Portman.