Thanks Nelson....wasn't sure where to post my thoughts, so I jumped in there.
It really really sucks that HD is only taking off here in America, whereas Blu ray is taking off in Europe. I don't understand the logic in that at all.
Discuss... discuss what?!! I can't believe it!!! If Bay had come in here and mentioned the weather, would you guys be discussing it?!!
i too am not sure what comments we're discussing, and i prefer blu-ray, but have yet to purchase. Isn't Bay's entire filmography except Trans going to be released on Bluray?
My Fav Bay -
1. The Rock
2. Bad Boys 2
4. Bad Boys
5. The Island
7. Pearl Harbor
Someone seems to be a little misinformed, Blu-ray is taking off everywhere.
Software sales are what the studios look at to see who's winning and where the sales are they will go - the hardware will follow the software.
Blu-ray disc sales vs. HD DVD sales
USA - 2:1
Europe - 3:1
Australia - 5.6:1
The only place in the world where HD DVD has any legs at all is in North America, where it has not won a single week's sales all entire year. That's right, Blu-ray has beated HD DVD every week of the year in software sales.
HD DVD - 750,000 (Standalones + 360 add-ons)
Blu-ray - 2,700,000 (Standalones + PlayStation 3)
Say bye-bye to HD DVD - by January 2009 the better format will prevail. More bandwidth, more capacity, more studio support, more big name director support (Bay, Spielberg), more CE support.
The only reason HD DVD standalone prices are so low is because Toshiba is desperate - unfortunately 500,000 standalones amounts to squat, because HD DVD is still losing every week. Black Friday, the biggest shopping day in America - Blu-ray won the week with 72.6% of the disc units moved, HD DVD had only 27.4% - despite selling 90,000 cheap players two weeks before. I guess a lot of people were upgrading their 360 add-on units, because they're handicapped in the audio front being limited to DVD-quality audio.
Toshiba has priced out all other manufacturers from HD DVD standalone hardware. No-one else will make one! There's no money in it.
Blu-ray is going to win this war and anyone that tries to convince you differently has an agenda and quite possibly works for Microsoft. There is no future for high definition media as long as there are two formats around.
People have been lied to by the HD DVD camp so much - that Blu-ray would never have 50GB discs (65.07% of releases in 2007 have been on 50GB discs) that Blu-ray would only ever use MPEG-2 (76.53% of releases in 2007 have either been AVC/MPEG-4 or VC-1) and I think you should be tired of being lied to. I am. I went Blu in November 2006 and I have not looked back since. It is far more consistent for audio and has a much more promising future than HD DUD.
Last edited by dobyblue; 12-04-2007 at 05:25 PM.
Thank God - Disney's releases so far have been awesome. Panasonic does all of their AVC/MPEG-4 encodes and add in 24-bit uncompressed PCM!! The Rock is going to be sick!
Out on Blu-ray in Europe already, out in USA in January 2008.
Although "The Island" was Paramount/Dreamworks which means it won't be released on BLu-ray until January 2009 when Paramount's exclusivity contract with the HD DVD Propaganda Group ends. However it is available from the UK on both Blu-ray and HD DVD and it's region free as well, as is the case with all of Warner's Blu-ray discs.
I have already imported it - I posted some scans of the cover and disc here - http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=21232
Last edited by dobyblue; 12-04-2007 at 05:28 PM.
And those dirt cheap HD-DVD players aren't even full HD 1080p.
Because current numbers are quite the opposite, you know ...
Everyone is buying Blu-Ray hardware and media right now. 90% of hardware manufacturers worldwide are releasing Blu-Ray devices, while Toshiba is practically all alone releasing its own products.
The Sony Playstation3 is gaining momentum and a huge boost is expected in the next few weeks for the holidays... and almost everyone is using the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, despite some HD-DVD supporters telling the opposite.
I loved Transformers and I bought a XBox360 HD-DVD player for my HTPC just for that but I'm going to buy a PS3 now as well and I will mainly buy Blu-Ray titles, hoping that once the format war will be over there will be movies released on upcoming 6-layer 200GB Blu-Ray discs, which are highly likely to be readable by the majority of current players thru firmware updates.
And what Mr.Bay said is just the truth. Bill Gates wants to estabilish a monopoly on movies distribution and sales thru Microsoft own online systems along with Microsoft DRM schemes.
Last edited by wingzero; 12-04-2007 at 05:45 PM.
I think the discussion of HD on this board shows a great hippocracy because so many claim its unfair that HD-DVD got Transformers exclusive from Paramount but really who started that fight to begin with. The blame squarely lands on Sony just by the nature of the fact they went around the consortium signing up exclusive deals with Fox and Disney to start. Unless anyone can prove it otherwise the only reason to go Exclusive so early on with out waiting for a winning format is money.
From a pure AV quality standpoint saying Blu Ray is vastly superior is VASTLY incorrect especially when you consider that VC-1 only needs 30 mbps on bit rate to provide the best picture possible in 1080p and the rest of the bandwidth can be utilized using Dolby True HD (lossless audio). While this can be done on current 30 GB disc rather well, the 51 gb discs increase platter size to 17gb from 15gb utilizing the same disc dimensions. The reason to mention this is, much like blu ray has 25 gig a disc giving 48 mbps, it increases the amount of data/bit rate of the reading device for HD-DVD from 36 mbps to 40 mbps. This makes the bit rate/Quality discussion even more laughable as currently neither format is really pushing 36mbps.
I just dont see how one can pick a format in this discussion on anything other than price as quality is equal between both. Sony has never had a history of being very friendly on the price of their products and I dont expect them to change that even if they win. Its like the cable company in my eyes the prices actually could go up if Sony wins out.
I would say the violations Sony have committed on consumers in general make them as suspect as Microsoft in any facet of technology. All you need to do is google Sony and Root kit for one example.
Sorry if i sound a little pissed off but it seems like no one puts in a constructive argument on this site for HD-DVD and it is really a great format which has been unfairly disparaged by the like of Blu Ray and its cult. Paramounts decision to move on to HD-DVD basically makes it even in my eyes because Sony, Fox, and Disney haven't necessarily been that great in releasing on both formats from the start (as in they don't). So crying that you dont have Transformers on Blu Ray is just hypocritical.
ok I'm well vented now, enjoy!
It is for the most obvious reason of all.
To beat the Sony PS3
All other objectives come much later down the road I assure you. If Blu Ray were to win out that would be a huge boon to the PS3 as it would be the player of choice and then hence Sony has a backdoor back into the console market in which they currently sit 4th behind wii 360 and ps2.
I think the speculation they are in it to kill both formats is just over hyped paranoia.
Let's think about why would you openly critisize a American Company to support a Japanese Company who don't give a Damn about the consumers. I assume that Universal do not want to support Blu-Ray because they have to kiss Sony's ass for everything. Sony basically doesn't support Adult Industry and denied them to Blu-Ray format.
I think Michael Bay need to shop and buy a PS3 and Xbox 360 and play them online. A week after Black Friday it's hard to find a Xbox 360 Premium or Elite. Wii are even rare for 30 minutes for store cameo appereance. Michael then should realize by the time you get the PS3 you got to get up and go buy a HDMI doen't come in the box that's separate purchase. Xbox 360 Elite has one in it's box. Xbox 360 HD-DVD addon is separate too. but When shopping Mike should see the Blu-Ray Prices of Disney and Fox they some place $39.99 but at least $29.99. Only reasons sales been high because of Buy 1 Get 1 Free. I been getting both I like movies. Meaning long as it was price $29.99 it wasn't moving. HD-DVDs have cheaper prices. Let's go to onliner gaming. You have more happy gamers playing 360 Online. There's at least 348,000 playing Halo 3 Worldwide and at least 50,000 playing Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare. Why is this because of lenghty development times and high manufacture cost of Blu-Ray, doen't exactly entice more developers because they don't want to lose money on a non-penetration of sales. If that doesn't wake him up he needs to go to Video Marketplace where he's bashing Microsoft. There are 8 Million Xbox Live Subscribers. That means if and when Transformers do be released then you got the best rental on Video Marketplace at $4 SD and $6 HD in US Canada, and UK. This will get you millions instantly. Right now the main backer of Blu-Ray doesn't have a online video store for the PS3. Recently Sony announced that the closing of their Sony Connect Store because they could't compete with iTunes. As of now Sony doesn't have a profitable online entertainment retails services. There alot to be said before start mud slinging. Mike needs to look at the overall picture before acussing or bribery.
Last edited by Houston2007; 12-04-2007 at 06:52 PM.
iTunes: 188 Movies, 1,414 TV Shows
its funny everyone dissing HD DVD in fav of Blu-Ray, why? both formats use the same compression in both audio and video, both are at :-
1920 x 1080 (HDTV)
AVC MPEG-4, VC-1, MPEG-2
Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, Dolby Digital, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio (lossless), Dolby TrueHD (lossless)
Advanced Access Content System (AACS) 128-bit (BD+, ROM Mark=BD Only)
Both Use Blue lasers in their drives.
the only differences are the Maximum data transfer rate for movie playback (Megabits per second) Which HD DVD is = 36mbps and Blu-Ray is 54mbps and the other is the size of the discs themselves.
even if Microsoft loose the format war, they'll still be making money from Blu-Ray as sony uses Microsoft VC-1 (Based on Windows Media Video 9) compression for some of their Blu-Ray Movies.
Yes Michael Bay wanted Transformers to be release on Blu-Ray and HD DVD as he wanted it to be on the best formats possible, but obviously this was prohibited due to it been Paramount, but Michael Bay also saw 300 on HD DVD and relised and he said "IT ROCKS" taken from the site http://www.michaelbay.com/blog/files...ay-HD-DVD.html
Last edited by demon148; 12-04-2007 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Need to Add More
2) Just as an example, Casino Royale Blu-Ray disc has 36Mbps peaks and it's MPEG-4 AVC H.264 1080p encoded. The 144 minutes movie alone is 35GB in size. This is true for many new movies. The extras on the BD-50 disc make use of 47GB out of the 50GB available.
3) The 3-layer HD-DVD 51GB discs are just marketing hype, no one is going to mass produce them, there will be no real adoption on the market. While the Blu-Ray 6-layer 200GB discs are highly likely going to be available to the market pretty soon, and if the HD-DVD disappears the studios will push adoption of BD 200GB discs and an updated BD profile specification to allow even higher allowed bitrates for video mainly to ensure less compression artifacts.
Really there isn't much difference between the formats to choose either one as superior to the other. And for me the only reason I like HD-DVD more is because it doesn't cost as much.
If Blu-Ray doesn't lower their prices to the level of HD-DVD then they'll still be in a lot of competition. Plus, PS3 has a big part of Blu-Ray sales, but really a lot of PS3 owners don't use it for Blu-Ray, in fact in the last survey it was found that only 40% of PS3 owners know that it can play Blu-Ray movies, and only about half of them had even played a Blu-Ray movie in their PS3. Also, only about 50% of Ps3 owners even know that it can play in HD. The PS3 is important for Blu-Ray sales, but HD-DVD is doing quite well for people who are actually buying HD-DVD on purpose. And really, Sony has a big stake in this since the failure of either the PS3 or Blu-Ray could spell doom for the other.
Although really, there things could change a lot for each format depending on how things go with the release of Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and Indiana Jones.
For me I would buy a Blu-Ray player if any of those were Blu-Ray exclusives. But I don't think it will be for a while because they are pretty much waiting to see which format comes out on top before they release a their movies in an HD format which will be a while from happening.
This is simply unbelievable. I can't believe Michael Bay would make such very serious accusations. I don't intend to lecture you Mr. Bay, but that statement you made is downright offensive. There aren't many times in my life where I've looked at a random statement on the internet or in a paper and been legitimately hurt by the thought someone would go so far. I have the utmost respect for you Mike as a person and as a man in profession.
Then there is the uninformed and ignorant people that at the first opportunity that presents itself smear Bill Gate's name.
Are you guys so cold that any and anything relating to Microsoft you just go on the offensive and attack Bill Gates despite the fact that I've he has long since removed himself from a day to day role at Microsoft where he would in any shape or form be involved with many of the business decisions? He doesn't actively preside over any business matters involving the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Formats nor is he even actively involved in many of the things people like to attack Microsoft for. Is attacking Bill Gates just the popular thing to do whenever somebody says terrible things about Microsoft as a company?
Before I got sidetracked I must say Mr. Bay I understood your original statement regarding this format war and then I understood the ones that followed, but I just don't know what to think of this latest one. Microsoft absolutely does not want both formats to fail. Microsoft has simply made a choice on which one they feel is better for the consumer. It is easy to look at which format has the most movie sales and judge superiority based on that fact alone, but that isn't the way to look at things. Is it too much to fathom that Microsoft legitimately has faith in the HD-DVD format and that is why they are supporting it? Is Sony or any other company the victim of such attacks because they are stubborn enough to believe in their format so much that they are willing to do whatever to see it succeed?
HD-DVD has been delivering an experience that has been on equal footing with Blu Ray every step of the way in terms of picture quality. If you take into consideration that the HD-DVD format has easily been the better of the 2 formats concerning the all around user experience, thanks in no small part to the interactivity features, then I can't see why anyone would jump to say Blu Ray is superior.
Yes Blu Ray has better movie sales because of the Playstation 3, which we all knew was bound to end up selling better than these standalone players, but it can't be said with any certainty that all these PS3 owners purchased a PS3 with Blu Ray movies as their main focal point. Were it not for the Playstation 3 this ridiculous format war would be more in favor of the format that is treating the customers right and is more affordable for the consumer. Early Blu Ray standalone adopters have been left out in the cold and wont be able to enjoy the same experiences as newer standalone blu ray standalone adopters because early Blu Ray players do not support all the same features. Yes Mr. Bay I know you feel strongly that your movie Transformers would have sold better on Blu Ray and I'm not here to disagree I know it would've sold better on Blu Ray, but not every Blu Ray owner would be able to enjoy the same well rounded experience due to missing features on some blu ray players and due to the fact that many of these blu ray players can't be upgraded to support the features they would be missing out on.
Doesn't it in anyway please you to know that all HD-DVD owners that purchased the wonderful movie you directed are able to enjoy the same amazing experience? I know it probably wasn't your intention Mr. Bay, but how do you think the people that went out to purchase the movie you directed (Transformers) on HD-DVD feel reading your comments feeding this format war? It is almost as if you are in no way appreciative of the fact that these people went out to buy your movie. I know you're angry that Blu Ray owners didn't get Transformers, but there are people that put down money for an HD-DVD player to get Transformers and it's almost as if you are totally turning a blind eye to that fact. You are successfully making the people that bought your movie look and feel like they are idiots. It is nice to know the 2 copies of Transformers I purchased for HD-DVD were insignificant. One for myself and one as an early christmas gift along with an hd-dvd player from Amazon.
I don't think its proper for you to get yourself involved in this messy format war for the amusement of blu ray and hd-dvd enthusiast on both sides. You have the money Mr. Bay go ahead and purchase a Blu Ray player (if you don't have one already) and purchase an HD-DVD player and see for yourself how "superior" Blu Ray is. What you are saying ultimately translates to Blu Ray is superior because the sales are higher.
Microsoft doesn't really care about the XBox360. The XBox has been a dead duck investment since its inception, Microsoft lost billions on it for years. They killed the original XBox console with no care for their own customers, while Sony keeps pushing the now ancient PS2 and for years pushed the PS1 despite the release of the PS3. The XBox360 has been plagued by hardware defects and low quality manufacturing issues with an a pretty high failure rate, far higher than the competing Nintendo and Sony consoles.
The XBox360 is just a way to distract Sony management and other competitors from Bill Gates true objectives, although Microsoft surely would enjoy to see Sony at failure and the PS3 to fail, but that it's not going to happen, fortunately for everyone excluding Gates.
Mr.Bay analysis is correct but Bill Gates masterplan is even more complex and ambitious. Judging from Microsoft moves so far I'd say that what Gates wants to achieve probably includes using HD-DVD and VC-1 standard as trojan horses along with the whole DRM stuff and download services to gain control over one or two major studios... Microsoft has been trying to build up its own television network and to produce its own movies (like the Halo movie..).. So, what they want to achieve is to be able to buy a couple of studios at a cheap price up to the point that they could achieve that even if Sony wins the format war with Blu-Ray .. Bill Gates might easily decide to buy Universal thanks to his current deals with Toshiba and merge it into the Microsoft group.. and he might try to buy Paramount (buying Dreamworks it's highly unlikely since Mr.Spielberg is not going to let that happen I bet, although Bill Gates deep pockets can always change that with anyone and Gates knows it). Surely Gates would like to see Sony collapse sooner better than later for him and the Microsoft group, so that he could then start "helping" Sony like he did "help" Apple... which means ending up controlling the group or a large part of it and its management. That would ensure Gates a large control on both Hollywood, tv networks, the news and so on... Bill Gates wants to expand Microsoft even further because he knows that Sony is a problem for his own goals in the tv networks and movie production sectors and because Gates wants to divide and conquer in order to control everyone and create a monopoly, which is exactly what he has done with Microsoft.
No matter what size the HD DVD disk gets 51gb or 30gb the bandwidth will not change. This is the biggest flaw with the HD DVD spec. It is limited to the 36mbs bit rate for the rest of its life or risk all current players being useless.
If you think that Blu-ray is not pushing its superior 48mbs peek bit rate you are mistaken. Several titles reach this limit.
Check out this link for average bit rates for Blu-ray movies. Some have average bit-rates over 40mbs
Higher the bitrate = higher the quality.
More space = higher possible average muxed bitrates can be achieved
Higher allowed bitrates = higher quality on fast moving scenes (for example)
VC-1 is an international approved standard. It was created thanks to proposals given by many developers and manufacturers that analyzed the original Microsoft WMV9 codec that VC-1 really is about. It's not a Microsoft own standard anymore, the organizations collect the earnings and divide them among their members AFAIK.
Last edited by wingzero; 12-04-2007 at 07:21 PM.
It is pretty clear the blu-ray has slaughtered this war. It is impossible to beat the format that is supported strongly by all todays top end electronic companies. And they also have the movie industry support. =)
I believe Mr Bay should do a little more research on this format war before making these types of statements.
Here are some facts that can be readily searched online.
The DVD Forum was a group of manufacturers that got together to pick the next Hi-Def video format. Sony ,Toshiba, Nec and many others were all members. They all agreed it was better to pick one format to not confuse consumers. When all the companies voted they chose the Toshiba/Nec format HD-DVD as the new Hi-Def format. It was done for many reasons. Most notably that picture quality and sound were basically identical. Both formats would have multiple layers so storage was not a problem. HDDVD's could be made at the same existing DVD plants with marginal changes to existing equipment. This was the deciding factor. Blu-Ray needed completely new plants. Sony was furious that Blu-Ray was not chosen and left the DVD Forum Group. They decided to launch Blu-Ray anyway and started the Blu-Ray Association.
Sony has a history for this type of behavior. Sony does not want to pay anyone royalties unless it is absolutely necessary. Sony always wants their format and no one elses. We all remember VHS and Beta. VHS-C and 8MM, Mini Disc, UMD and the list goes on. Just how many Memory formats are they pushing right now??? Just recently Sony released the PS3 and the controllers had no rumble. Why? Because they were in a lawsuit with Immersion and did not want to pay royalties as Nintendo and Microsoft do. Sony made lame excuses to consumers that their new six axis controllers could not use rumble because it interfered with the Six Axis. Then the law suit ended in Immersions favor. Sony paid big and then Sony announced they would add rumble to the PS3 controllers. I guess it did not interfere with the Six Axis anymore. Funny though, They are using the original and oldest rumble technology from Immersion. It has the cheapest royalty.
One last thing Mr. Bay should note. After Being beat up repeatedly in format wars. Sony decided to purchase Movie Studios and Music Labels to push new formats they would introduce. Pretty smart, but it has not worked yet in all these years.
This format war has no one to blame but Sony. If they had gone by the rules they agreed to in the DVD Forum Association we would only have one format right now.
I am sure Microsoft lives for the day of Digital Downloads and Sony is helping them by starting the format war.
I will not buy any Hi-Def DVD's until someone wins this war. But I have to be honest. Sony's arrogance disgusts me.