Official RoTF discussion thread **PART 2 /Reviews go here** [ SPOILERS ]

[martinwellbourne]

I've known of him.

Riiiight, so you've heard of him. And from this you believe he is faking his outrage at the movie... Hmm. I must be missing something here, because from where I'm standing, your allegation doesn't make a shred of sense on any level.

I just though they had to do what they had to do and pass the buck on to Bay.

Okay, I'm absolutely fascinated by this statement! "Had to do what they had to do"? Exactly what "buck" are they passing to Bay if there's no claim or racism to answer?

For the record, here's what Kurtzman & Orci had to say:

==========================================

INTERVIEWER: I heard that the gold tooth was Michael Bay's idea, but do you have any response to those who found the The Twins offensive?

ORCI: Number one, we sympathize. Yes, the gold tooth was not in the script, that’s true.

KURTZMAN: It’s really hard for us to sit here and try to justify it.I think that would be very foolish, and if someone wants to be offended by it, it’s their right. We were very surprised when we saw it, too, and it’s a choice that was made. If anything, it just shows you that we don’t control every aspect of the movie.

INTERVEIWER: Were you offended by them?

KURTZMAN: I wasn’t thrilled. I certainly wasn’t thrilled.

ORCI: Yeah, same reaction. I’m not easily offended, but when I saw it, I thought, ‘Someone’s gonna write about that.’”

[nelson]

Okay, I'm absolutely fascinated by this statement! "Had to do what they had to do"? Exactly what "buck" are they passing to Bay if there's no claim or racism to answer?

The buck of the twinz in their entirety. They basically said it was all Bay's idea. If they really did have a problem they should've gone to the head of the studio. Apparently it wasn't an issue as Spielberg would've asked for changes.

If no one would've said anything about this, that interview would've never taken place.

[martinwellbourne]

hey, here you are lyning, google news finds 132.

4,903.

[martinwellbourne]

If no one would've said anything about this, that interview would've never taken place.
But it did. And they were offended. It's there in black and white.

They didn't say "Yes, we were offended" if you want to get semantic on this. They said they we're thrilled.

Why do you believe Devin Faraci was feigning outrage?

Look where being hyperbolic has gotten him. He begged everyone to Digg the hell out of this.

[It's an odd thing to note, but....."twinz" with a "z" nelson? Really...? I didn't think anyone had done that since 1997!]

What's next, you're going to accuse me of being a racist?

[nelson]

4,903.

Actually, all those result just lead to pages that have the word" transformers" in them.

If I were to click on that 3.452 link it would take me to another set of story link. One of the first ones is this one. It makes no mention of racism. But there is one mention of the word RACIng in the feedback.

[darthrage]

wow, look at all the noobs joining the board just to bitch and moan about something that has already been discussed to death

martin should just go over to tfw2005 dot com instead

You can just join the hundred other threads where fanboys can whine about it


CAn we PLEASE talk about ROTF now instead of all this crap about racism?

[xSoundwave]

Just as a quick correction to nelson's earlier post, it was the language of the Primes, but there were others who could read it. Jetfire could, and he was a seeker.

[martinwellbourne]

They didn't say "Yes, we were offended" if you want to get semantic on this. They said they we're thrilled.

I have no desire to get semantic about this, I'd just like you to acknowledge that the writers themselves view the depiction of the twinz (sic) as less that satisfactory. Can you do that, having read an interview in black and white, published across the internet?

Look where being hyperbolic has gotten him. He begged everyone to Digg the hell out of this.

Here - I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[martinwellbourne]

And then I figured it out: teenage boys.

Illiterate teenage boys with gold teeth who speak in ebonics?

[xSoundwave]

Illiterate teenage boys with gold teeth who speak in ebonics?

And of course, every illiterate teenage boy with gold teeth is black. Isn't that what all of you people crying "racist" are trying to say here? Do you not see a problem with this?

And who is to say the Twins are illiterate? Maybe they just don't do a lot of reading.

[nelson]

Illiterate teenage boys with gold teeth who speak in ebonics?

...A this equals black people?

[Ed Fuego]

Illiterate teenage boys with gold teeth who speak in ebonics?

Calling someone a pussy is ebonics? I think you are confusing ebonics with slang. And slang is spoken by all races, obviously.

Saying, "we don't read much" doesn't mean you're illiterate. They knew enough to realize the language was Cybertronian. If you showed me an ancient language I wouldn't have a clue what it was, much less be able to speak it.

And furthermore, kids, especially at a young age, could easily be confused as "illiterate" by the way they speak; it doesn't make them illiterate.

And I've seen quite a few kids out there with mulit-colored teeth. Hell you can get braces that are various colors nowadays. That isn't a "black" thing.

So everything you've suggested as being obviously "black" doesn't seem so obvious to me. It seems juvenile, as many kids act.

Ed Fuego

[r-type]

Calling someone a pussy is ebonics? I think you are confusing ebonics with slang. And slang is spoken by all races, obviously.

Saying, "we don't read much" doesn't mean you're illiterate. They knew enough to realize the language was Cybertronian. If you showed me an ancient language I wouldn't have a clue what it was, much less be able to speak it.

And furthermore, kids, especially at a young age, could easily be confused as "illiterate" by the way they speak; it doesn't make them illiterate.

And I've seen quite a few kids out there with mulit-colored teeth. Hell you can get braces that are various colors nowadays. That isn't a "black" thing.

So everything you've suggested as being obviously "black" doesn't seem so obvious to me. It seems juvenile, as many kids act.

Ed Fuego

Suffice to say, Ed, it's becoming (or has become) evident, judging by their obtuse and myopic comments, that these $#!t stirrers are either so sheltered or stupid enough to take everything at face value and run with it. In their homogeneous world, only African Americans fall under a these kinds of stereotypes, and damn you if you don't agree with their feigned indignation.

And instead of constructive discourse (Hey, you wanna bitch about how they got more screentime than other, more cooler bots,...then by all means), they want to continuously force this baseless, square-shaped bullshit into a round hole. Not to mention, water down the actual definition of racism. FFS.

[Andreas]

I have to say... this is perhaps my favorite Bay movie so far. No... it is my favorite Bay movie. Action-packed from start to finish. Comedy, action and suspense, rolled up into a neat package that is unravelled from the movie's first minute. The final battle in Egypt is one of the most epic onscreen fights I've ever seen. I just can't stop praising this movie.

To all you haters... fuck you.

[Ed Fuego]

Suffice to say, Ed, it's becoming (or has become) evident, judging by their obtuse and myopic comments, that these $#!t stirrers are either so sheltered or stupid enough to take everything at face value and run with it. In their homogeneous world, only African Americans fall under a these kinds of stereotypes, and damn you if you don't agree with their feigned indignation.

And instead of constructive discourse (Hey, you wanna bitch about how they got more screentime than other, more cooler bots,...then by all means), they want to continuously force this baseless, square-shaped bullshit into a round hole. Not to mention, water down the actual definition of racism. FFS.

True dat. (That makes me black, right?)


Ed Fuego

[Jammed9000]

Okay, so what in the flying sh!t is the problem with these twins? Seriously, WTF is the reason for all this offense? Is it cause they act "black"?
Is it cause they stated they "don't read much" so an ignorant parent will think that is not a good influence on their child?
Why is a gold tooth such an offense and since when does it signify that someone shouldn't have one cause it's "offensive"?
Can someone tell me what the damn problem is?
It seems to me that it is actually being racist to be offended by these characters.

[Andreas]

Actually, all those result just lead to pages that have the word" transformers" in them.

If I were to click on that 3.452 link it would take me to another set of story link. One of the first ones is this one. It makes no mention of racism. But there is one mention of the word RACIng in the feedback.

Haha, epic fail.

[r-type]

True dat. (That makes me black, right?)


Ed Fuego

Word is bond, yo.

[Andreas]

True dat. (That makes me black, right?)


Ed Fuego

Forget about it.

Oh shit, now I'm racist to Italian-Americans, right?

[Mech_1000]

Word is bond, yo.

foshizzo

[Drake]

[QUOTE=martinwellbourne;97096]

Oh really? Personally?

Also - Do you now accept that Kurtzman and Orci had a problem with the Twins?

Interesting writing style. Seems familiar.

[Mech_1000]

Sorry for double posting,

Did Optimus lose all of JetFire's parts at the end of the movie, or just the wings?

[scottrichardson]

How are the twins any more racial than ironhide speaking with a pommy geezah accent?? Or prime speaking in a typical white american accent?

Seriously, these are characters....

If they were black men acting like that, there wouldn't be a problem. At no point does this movie incite racism. It portrays characters of specific racial backgrounds and styles.

Seriously people, this is so damn obvious and simple.

Jeezus, next the commandos won't be allowed to wear a certain uniform as that's portraying on force over another LOL...

[m34nstr34k]

I’m tired of people reviewing this movie like it’s The Godfather, Godsford Park or even The Dark Knight. In Revenge of the Fallen the plot had its holes, some of the plot devices were poorly chosen (female Decepticon going after Sam on campus like a horny, slut freshman) and some of the comedic attempts completely failed. On the other hand, the fact is, I felt bad when Optimus Prime died and I cheered when he and Bumblebee kicked ass. The fight in the forest is undeniable proof that Bay shoots for the edit like he claims. Moving on… I couldn't help but feel a little drama when Sam's dad didn't want to let him go and I didn't feel robbed of a genuine performance when it came to the arguments, misunderstandings and progress of Sam and Mikaela's relationship (the "L" word, getting caught with another girl and the little bit of cheese in Mikaela begging for Sam to come back). The writing and performances were not perfect, but I liked the movie; I liked aspects of it better than the first. Nothing will beat the first time you see Blackout transform in the first film, but the battle scenes are great in Revenge of the Fallen. The Decepticon's plan fails and Megatron and Starsrcream run like little bitches… The sequel ended just like every other G1 Transformers cartoon ever did, but for some reason, it didn't feel outdated, corny and cheap. It was a straight forward plot with problems, but as far as I'm concerned it worked over all. There were very few ways to handle the death and reanimation of Optimus. The death of the ultimate leader was needed to help make the robots mirror our own humanity and mortality. They brought in the Matrix of Leadership, the Energon machine and didn't attempt to make another Autobot a Prime. Trying to make another Prime would have failed and I’m happy they didn’t try it. I dislike the haters who come in and bitch about things like Shia screaming "Go, go, go, go!" or how outrageous his mom is. Looking at the prior two complaints respectively, in life people are creatures of habit. They have mannerisms, speech patterns and things they do and say over and over again, usually without thinking or noticing. Sam saying “Go!” is all that is. Everyone does this, including animals. So, in my eyes complaints like that are ignorant. Also, I don't care who you are, everyone has or knows that relative that says and does things out of the ordinary. They embarrass themselves and others. Everyone knows of or has that mom, dad, uncle or cousin that's just on the edge of crazy and they do and say things we may not like or don’t want to think about; that's Sam's mom in this movie. Her pot brownie scene was over the top, but it wasn’t horrible and she didn't bother me as much as any of the reviewers. The other complaint is about the Twins and all the little robots. Maybe the twins took the place of Tyrese’s spazzing and Bernie Mac’s cameo. Even outside of Michael Bay’s movies, there’s always the wise cracking urban dude; whether he’s African-American, Hispanic or just the average white guy messing around. The only complaint I had about the twins were their teeth and that’s not important. Sure, some of the lines could have been funnier and less identified with the typical Chris Tucker/Eddie Murphy types, but oh well. You write and cast it next time. People complained about, “…not enough robots; too much human…” So they put the personality of the crazy and funny black guy into two robots. If they didn’t put that element there, maybe they should have put it in the character of Sam’s roommate; maybe not. They keep comparing the little robots to Jar Jar Binks and it's not even close. No character, in the recent history of film, prequel, sequel or remake, is more annoying than Jar Jar in Episode I. Hands down! Just seeing Jar Jar in Episode II made me cringe. I want someone to please give me an example that any of the fan boys, haters or devil’s advocates can stand behind, that would make me think otherwise. No one complained about Schmiegel in Lord of the Rings and I found him more annoying than any of the smaller bots in either of the Transformers films. Don’t get me wrong Bay can really suck the big one. I hate Pearl Harbor and it’s followed very closely by Armageddon (only due to the casting of Affleck, the Aerosmith plug and the moon truck jump). I wasn’t a big fan of the Island, but it could have been worse. Scarlett was hot and I’m a fan of Ewan. Going back to the robots, I would like to address the Soundwave problem. One reviewer seemed annoyed with Soundwave staying out in space and I guess that’s relavant. I was a little bothered too, but I was a more bothered that no other government in the world noticed a giant satellite in Earth’s orbit that no other government or company ever launched. It just shows up and… heh. In the end, Soundwave being a satellite makes perfect sense though. Here’s a question; if he were on earth, what should he transform into? What should he look like? Megatron couldn’t carry around a big boom box; the 80’s and pop culture break-dancing are over. I think his place and appearance made sense, but they should have made it more credible in the story. Over all, Bay isn’t doing as bad of a job as people say, in my opinion. Just like many of you, I have my own ideas of the perfect adaptation and story elements, but I’m a fan, not a writer or director. Bay is taking care of the action like gangbusters the major fight scenes were perfect to me. Watching the aircraft carrier sink reminded me of Titanic. With people and random objects on the ship, falling of the ship and in the water, it looked convincing to me. Roland Emmerich should take note for his next epic failure. Bay seems to keep just enough of the origin to shut most people up. I never expected to see The Matrix of Leadership or hear anything about Energon. He just needs to work on the casting. John Turturro and Anthony Anderson should have never been in the first one and Turturro should have never made it to the second. I like him in certain roles, but if they were going to reduce the comic attempts they should have started with him. Anthony Anderson as a hacker was lame in the first and if they were thinking ahead that could have made Leo’s character the hacker in the first one and made him a contact in the second. This would have gotten rid of Turturro and Anderson and improved the believability of the story. After reports of Leo having a bigger role in the third installment hit this site people bitched jumped right in to cry. I didn’t dig his character that much either, but that was his role in the story; you weren’t really supposed to like him that much. In my eyes that means he did a good job with it and he should get a shot to expand on it and maybe change how you see his character. That’s if the writers are smarter next time. I remember people saying they didn’t like Alonzo (Denzel) in Training Day. No shit moron, he was a complete jerk and he was meant to be seen that way. Leo freaked out too much, but blame that on the writers and Bay, not the actor. Would you turn down the opportunity to be in such a big project, with all the names and hype attached, because you didn’t like the character you were offered? If so, you’re stupid. I don’t care if I was cast as a one-legged, bi-sexual man who voted for George W. twice and hooked up with the main character’s girlfriend; if it was with Bay, Fox and Shia I would take it and act my ass off.

That’s just my two cents,


m34nstr34k

[sora]

Honestly, in my eye as a non-American, political correctness movement in the U.S. looks going a bit too far.

A funny thing was, when I said I have slitty eyes (not a derogatory word in our environment), an American guy accused me of being a racist, even I'm an Asian myself, and people around me think it's my charming feature. Maybe I should tell my kids not to do any "staring contest" while visiting the U.S. so that they'd not be blamed for making very ordinary slant-eye poses.

As for the Twins in the movie, I felt they were just immature aliens, who might have learnt through TV or internet how to act like kids of nowadays on Earth. There's a bunch of Japanese teens like them around Shibuya or Harajuku, speaking like that and showing off their grills, and you know, many of us have infamous buckteeth too (and we're not ashamed of it so much).

BTW, my kids liked the Twins. When those young bots fought against Devastator who's way huger than them, my son said "Wow, it's cool of him doing it like Issunboshi!".