Avatar by Cameron

[fu2kimus_prime]

Yeah, it's kind of funny watching all the haters. Avatar is pretty much destroying everything in it's path and will likely wind up the highest grossing movie of 2009.

Oh and to the people saying Transformers 2 was a better movie... c'mon guys. I'm as big a Bay fan as anyone, but that's just a silly comment. Transformers 2 is just dumb summer fun. Avatar is aiming a lot higher and, I feel, reaching those goals.

I agree with this for the most part. However I think the reason I enjoy Transformers 2 more than Avatar is because as you say TF2 is just a big fun popcorn flick and achieves that. Imo Avatar aims to be more than, that but doesn't achieve it.

In the end it's all moot though, as both are films everyone should experience in a packed theatre and both deserve all the suceess they've had.

Though I will say despite all Avatars fancy new tech, and gimmicks, the CGI in Transformers 2 is still better. To my eyes atleast.

[lightning]

cameron's best movie is true lies

i've seen titanic once and i don't plan to see it again. it's good but not as good as true lies.

[lightning]

I agree with this for the most part. However I think the reason I enjoy Transformers 2 more than Avatar is because as you say TF2 is just a big fun popcorn flick and achieves that. Imo Avatar aims to be more than, that but doesn't achieve it.

In the end it's all moot though, as both are films everyone should experience in a packed theatre and both deserve all the suceess they've had.

Though I will say despite all Avatars fancy new tech, and gimmicks, the CGI in Transformers 2 is still better. To my eyes atleast.

jurassic park 1 looks more believable than avatar. the best part of avatar were the spaceships and the helicopters. i don't like the navi. megatron looks a lot better than the navi.

[Trigger Mike]

I agree with this for the most part. However I think the reason I enjoy Transformers 2 more than Avatar is because as you say TF2 is just a big fun popcorn flick and achieves that. Imo Avatar aims to be more than, that but doesn't achieve it.

In the end it's all moot though, as both are films everyone should experience in a packed theatre and both deserve all the suceess they've had.

Though I will say despite all Avatars fancy new tech, and gimmicks, the CGI in Transformers 2 is still better. To my eyes atleast.

It's all just a matter of perception. You prefer Transformers 2, I prefer Avatar, and someone, somewhere prefers High School Musical 3. That's the great thing about movies; you like what you like and no one is wrong!

jurassic park 1 looks more believable than avatar. the best part of avatar were the spaceships and the helicopters. i don't like the navi. megatron looks a lot better than the navi.

Wait, what was I just saying about no one being wrong? Sorry, lightning, but you're wrong if you think the digital work in Jurassic Park is superior to Avatar.

I truly love Jurassic Park and have a very special place in my heart for that movie. Avatar, however, is leaps and bounds ahead of it technically. If you don't believe me, then I suggest you go back and look at Jurassic Park again.

[Bayhem]

Transformers 2 is just dumb summer fun. Avatar is aiming a lot higher and, I feel, reaching those goals.

Yes, "Avatar" is aiming a lot higher in terms of CGI and photorealistic characters and environment. As for everything else, we've seen it all before - the story, the characters, the script, you name it. Cameron said it himself, he wanted to create a visual spectacle, he wanted to wow the audience - and he succeeded. Just like the first Transformers movie, "Avatar" will be mostly remembered for its groundbreaking CG characters and breathtaking visuals.


On a side note, I really don't think that "Revenge of the Fallen" is just a dumb summer fun, but that's me.

[Trailbreaker]

jurassic park 1 looks more believable than avatar.

lmao

[fu2kimus_prime]

jurassic park 1 looks more believable than avatar. the best part of avatar were the spaceships and the helicopters. i don't like the navi. megatron looks a lot better than the navi.

You seem to have taken abit of stick for this comment so far, but I kind of see where you're coming from. From a technical standpoint you're wrong Avatar is way more advanced (obviously its using the very latest tech) and the landscapes, and the vehicles are breath taking at times.

But for me CGI is all about making you believe in what you're seeing for the 2 hours or so that you're watching it. And for me this is where The Navi fail. My eyes don't believe in them as much as I believed in the dinosaurs in JP, the robots in TF, or even the aliens in District 9.

I'm looking forward to where this new 3d technology goes from here, because I feel it's brilliant for landscapes, and vehicles etc. However I believe it's going to take characters more realistically rendered, and better designed than The Navi to make me suspend my disbelief, like I did for JP, and TF etc.

I feel like it's just not quite there yet, but it probably will be in Camerons next film using this tech.

[BIG Tee]

jurassic park 1 looks more believable than avatar. the best part of avatar were the spaceships and the helicopters. i don't like the navi. megatron looks a lot better than the navi.

Lightning I see where you are coming from. But it's the comparison of the two where the problem comes. JP was years ahead of it's time. I recall seeing the movie when it was released in 1993 and I was like dang this stuff looks real. The dinos were believable...for that time. Fast forward 16 years and JP couldn't hold a torch to Avatars CGI. However I do agree that the rendering of the Transformers was much better than that of the Navi.

[BIG Tee]

Oh and to the people saying Transformers 2 was a better movie... c'mon guys. I'm as big a Bay fan as anyone, but that's just a silly comment. Transformers 2 is just dumb summer fun. Avatar is aiming a lot higher and, I feel, reaching those goals.

Is it not OK to have a difference in opinion? I personally enjoyed watching ROTF more so than Avatar. I also enjoyed watching Star Trek more so than Avatar. That's not to say I don't personally think Avatar was not a good movie because it was (I saw it 3 times). I just enjoyed ST and ROTF more. Movies are all subjective, it all depends on what you like. Prime example: my wife would rather have saw The Proposal (she loves Sandra) or The Blind Side more so than ROTF because those are the movies she likes.

[Mindfreak87]

James Cameron has suggested in the DVD/Blu-ray a Na'vi sex scene which was deleted may be included in the film... lol.

http://www.reelzchannel.com/movie-ne...-pop-up-in-dvd

[Jarek Zabczynski]

TF2 is my least favorite Bay film...it's fun and looks great...but cmon...it's a trainwreck.

[Bayhem]

...if you want to see how they have sex.

CG characters having sex?

That's a new one, so count me in.

[Trailbreaker]

CG characters having sex?

That's a new one, so count me in.

As long as we don't see a blue computer generated dick like we did with Dr. Manhattan.

[Trigger Mike]

Yes, "Avatar" is aiming a lot higher in terms of CGI and photorealistic characters and environment.

It's funny that you list these aspects, as I wasn't thinking about any of them when I made my original comment. What I meant by "aiming higher" was Avatar's attempt to exist on more planes than just the 'cool' one. To me, Avatar attempts to reach emotional, political and spiritual planes of existence as well as being cool and entertaining. Whether it reaches them or not is in the eye and mind of the invidiual viewer, but you can't deny the film's desire to be more than just a rotating camera shot of a car transforming into a robot.

ROTF didn't appear to aim for anything more than some bigger versions of the same explosions from Transformers 1.

I wonder if we're going to get the white desert in Transformers 3?

As for everything else, we've seen it all before - the story, the characters, the script, you name it.

I keep hearing this criticism of the film and it confuses me.

I have never seen a story about humans mining a precious energy resource on an alien world, while doing battle with an indigenous population 150ish years in the future. If such a film exists, I'm still waiting for someone to point it out to me.

In addition to which, I have never seen anything quite like the Na'vi before. I thought the concept of an integrated natural network where the inhabitants literally 'plugged in' with their own bodies was fascinating and VERY original. Again, if this has been done verbatim (as some would have you believe), then please, by all means, POINT IT OUT TO ME!

I honestly don't know where everyone saw this same movie previously. I've seen my fair share of flicks and this particularly story was fresh to me.

It's funny that there's always a small negative uprising to any artistic endeavor that reaches such incredible heights, both critically and financially. No one can shoot down the visual achievement of Avatar, so those who want to bash it have nothing left but to hit on the story.

Well, here's a newsflash: when you break any movie down, it will fall into one of seven stories, as there are only seven basic stories in storytelling.

Not all movies should twist like The Usual Suspects, either.

I suggest anyone who wants to hate on Avatar's story read this article before continuing:

The Hot Blog

Cameron said it himself, he wanted to create a visual spectacle, he wanted to wow the audience - and he succeeded. Just like the first Transformers movie, "Avatar" will be mostly remembered for its groundbreaking CG characters and breathtaking visuals.

True, Avatar will be remembered for its visual mastery as well as marking the wide adoption of stereoscopic photography in live action filmmaking.

That doesn't mean its story and characters aren't firing on all cylinders as well.

On a side note, I really don't think that "Revenge of the Fallen" is just a dumb summer fun, but that's me.

Interesting. I don't want you to think that I'm picking on you (as we seem to be running into each other in multiple threads), but I would like you to expound upon this:

Besides being big/loud/dumb Summer fun, what else was ROTF to you?...

Is it not OK to have a difference in opinion? I personally enjoyed watching ROTF more so than Avatar. I also enjoyed watching Star Trek more so than Avatar. That's not to say I don't personally think Avatar was not a good movie because it was (I saw it 3 times). I just enjoyed ST and ROTF more. Movies are all subjective, it all depends on what you like. Prime example: my wife would rather have saw The Proposal (she loves Sandra) or The Blind Side more so than ROTF because those are the movies she likes.

Point taken and I agree. You like what you like and who is anyone to say otherwise!

Allow me to put it like this, then:

Favorites aside, I don't believe it's possible to make a case for Transformers: ROTF being a superior film (technical achievements AND storytelling prowess) to Avatar. You can prefer ROTF to Avatar, but I'd like to see you make a case for ROTF having a superior story, character development, visual effects etc. etc. etc.

I'll gladly debate it with you in this thread.

TF2 is my least favorite Bay film...it's fun and looks great...but cmon...it's a trainwreck.

Blasphemy!

(How's it going, Jester?)

((Oh, and I agree with you 100%. ROTF is dead last for me as well. I think Bay just phoned it in.))

[Dynasty]

Just came back from Avatar- enjoyed it- thought it was a neat idea, didn't mind the save-the-rainforest message, found it entertaining... but it hasn't won me over to 3D. I find 3D superfluous- I have depth perception, at some points the visuals made me nauseous...

[Bayhem]

...but you can't deny the film's desire to be more than just a rotating camera shot of a car transforming into a robot.

And who said that "Revenge of the Fallen" was just "rotating camera shots ( that's a thing you see in every Bay film, so I don't know why you even use it as an example ) and transforming robots"?

What about the relationship between Sam, Bumblebee and Optimus, what about the way the military worked with the Autobots, the other different robots and their interaction with the humans?

Thing is, we as individuals see what we want to see - you see rotating cameras, explosions and transforming cars, I see relationships between these characters, I see the great locations, I see the powerful music and of course I also see the Bay-style action and explosions.

I have never seen a story about humans mining a precious energy resource on an alien world, while doing battle with an indigenous population 150ish years in the future. If such a film exists, I'm still waiting for someone to point it out to me.

I'm pretty sure you've seen "The Last Samurai". Avatar's basic story is pretty much the same - a guy joining the "other side" and now he's fighting against his old boss.

It's funny that there's always a small negative uprising to any artistic endeavor that reaches such incredible heights, both critically and financially. No one can shoot down the visual achievement of Avatar, so those who want to bash it have nothing left but to hit on the story.

I don't know if you've seen all my posts, but I made it clear that "Avatar" was one of my favorite movies of 2009. I went in, expecting a great visual experience and that's exactly what I got. I've seen the story before and I've seen the characters before.

That doesn't mean its story and characters aren't firing on all cylinders as well.

Like I already mentioned, I loved the movie but the story in particular...can't say that I was impressed. Owen Gleiberman talks about it - http://movie-critics.ew.com/2009/12/...-story-matter/

I'm not saying I agree with him 100%, but he makes some good points.

Besides being big/loud/dumb Summer fun, what else was ROTF to you?...

Personally, I also saw the movie as an emotional journey for the main character Sam. It's not just about these robots beating the crap out of each other, it's about his relationship with the robots and his relationship with his parents. That scene in the end between Shia and Kevin Dunn really made the entire movie for me ( when his dad was screaming, "You're my son, we're all going together" ). I never expected to see something so powerful and dramatic in a movie about giant transforming robots. It was a nice surprise and it made me realize that "Revenge of the Fallen" was more than just a "dumb fun". And that's why, just like Big Tee, I enjoyed watching "Revenge of the Fallen" more so than "Avatar".


But at the end of the day, we all liked "Avatar" and we all have our reasons. Some liked it because of the story and the charactes, others liked it because it was a great spectacle. We're all different and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Mindfreak87]

As long as we don't see a blue computer generated dick like we did with Dr. Manhattan.

Quote from the link:

"If you guessed that the strange tendrils the Na'vi use to connect or "sync" with other creatures on Pandora might have something to do with how they "get their groove on," you would be right, according to Saldana".

[Trailbreaker]

Quote from the link:

"If you guessed that the strange tendrils the Na'vi use to connect or "sync" with other creatures on Pandora might have something to do with how they "get their groove on," you would be right, according to Saldana".

I read in James Cameron's Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide, that the tendrils, or "queues" as they call em are used to form an intimate emotional bond between two Na'Vi. It's not their "parts" as one would think. Both male and female Na'Vi still have reproductive organs, it's just that the queues serve to emotionally bond the two together for a lifetime.

Yeah, I can't believe we're discussing Na'Vi sex.

[redqueenar]

Avatar - the unwavering devotion and authorship of Master Machinist James Cameron for TEN. SOLID. YEARS.

TF2: Revenge of the Fallen - The unwavering devotioon of Michael Bay, Superior Shootist during a writer's strike, accompanied by the authorship of two men who were also writing (and receiving producer credit and income from) Star Trek. On Time And Under Budget.

Apples and Oranges, people. Honestly.

[Z28 Autobot]

Blasphemy!

(How's it going, Jester?)

((Oh, and I agree with you 100%. ROTF is dead last for me as well. I think Bay just phoned it in.))

Well at least we can agree on these things..like in that other thread

[Trigger Mike]

And who said that "Revenge of the Fallen" was just "rotating camera shots ( that's a thing you see in every Bay film, so I don't know why you even use it as an example ) and transforming robots"?

I believe I said that.

Bay's always used the spiral shot as a signature to punctuate a key moment. In ROTF, however, he used it more than an over-the-shoulder two shot! I honestly lost count of the number of times I saw it.

What about the relationship between Sam, Bumblebee and Optimus, what about the way the military worked with the Autobots, the other different robots and their interaction with the humans?

There was character development/story in all that? I must have missed it. Too busy getting wowed by rotating camera shots.

Thing is, we as individuals see what we want to see - you see rotating cameras, explosions and transforming cars, I see relationships between these characters, I see the great locations, I see the powerful music and of course I also see the Bay-style action and explosions.

If you honestly managed to locate developed relationships and three dimensional characters in ROTF, then more power to you. I could ask for you to explain where this is, but I just don't care anymore. Honestly.

I'm pretty sure you've seen "The Last Samurai". Avatar's basic story is pretty much the same - a guy joining the "other side" and now he's fighting against his old boss.

Like I said; there are only seven basic stories in storytelling. When you boil a story down to its core elements, it will fit into one of seven archetypes.

Having said that, comparing Avatar to The Last Samurai is just silly. One is a period film set in feudal Japan and the other is a future-set, Sci-Fantasy based on a planet in the Alpha Centauri galaxy. You're going to have to do better than that to convince me Avatar has been seen before.

I don't know if you've seen all my posts, but I made it clear that "Avatar" was one of my favorite movies of 2009. I went in, expecting a great visual experience and that's exactly what I got. I've seen the story before and I've seen the characters before.

Where, pray tell, have you seen the Na'vi before? Which film depicts an indigenous alien race that can physically connect to a naturally-occurring network that spans the entire planet?

Seriously. Give me the title of one film that does this and I'll gladly concede that this has been done before.

Some people are awful quick to knock Avatar for being unoriginal, but I'm yet to meet a single individual who can back their claims up. Knock Avatar all you want - what do I care? I'm not James Cameron. However, be prepared to have some tangible reasoning to fall back on when someone challenges you.

Like I already mentioned, I loved the movie but the story in particular...can't say that I was impressed. Owen Gleiberman talks about it - http://movie-critics.ew.com/2009/12/...-story-matter/

I'm not saying I agree with him 100%, but he makes some good points.

Did you read the article from The Hot Blog I posted? It destroys a lot of those points.

Personally, I also saw the movie as an emotional journey for the main character Sam. It's not just about these robots beating the crap out of each other, it's about his relationship with the robots and his relationship with his parents. That scene in the end between Shia and Kevin Dunn really made the entire movie for me ( when his dad was screaming, "You're my son, we're all going together" ). I never expected to see something so powerful and dramatic in a movie about giant transforming robots. It was a nice surprise and it made me realize that "Revenge of the Fallen" was more than just a "dumb fun". And that's why, just like Big Tee, I enjoyed watching "Revenge of the Fallen" more so than "Avatar".

I applaud your ability to overlook the complete ineptitude that is Sam Witwicky's parents in ROTF. They can be exorcised from the film entirely and the plot is completely unaffected. In other words, they serve zero purpose. Even comic relief needs to have an integrated reason for existing. It cannot simply show up every time a joke is needed to lighten the mood. It should probably be funny, too.

Matter of fact, I think you can chop an easy hour of bullshit scenes out of ROTF without affecting the story one iota.

If you were able to decode emotion from ROTF, then again, more power to you, buddy.

I read in James Cameron's Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide, that the tendrils, or "queues" as they call em are used to form an intimate emotional bond between two Na'Vi. It's not their "parts" as one would think. Both male and female Na'Vi still have reproductive organs, it's just that the queues serve to emotionally bond the two together for a lifetime.

Yeah, I can't believe we're discussing Na'Vi sex.

We're discussing it because it's captivating and thought provoking. And that's PRECISELY what a film should do - even the ones geared for broad entertainment.

Avatar - the unwavering devotion and authorship of Master Machinist James Cameron for TEN. SOLID. YEARS.

TF2: Revenge of the Fallen - The unwavering devotioon of Michael Bay, Superior Shootist during a writer's strike, accompanied by the authorship of two men who were also writing (and receiving producer credit and income from) Star Trek. On Time And Under Budget.

Apples and Oranges, people. Honestly.

Very well put. I also like to put it this way:

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen - How it shouldn't be done.
Avatar - How it should be done.

Well at least we can agree on these things..like in that other thread

Oh c'mon, Z28, we always agree!

[Trailbreaker]

Ya know when I took my mom and a couple of my cousins to the movie, one of them actually compared it to real historical events. In this case, how the Europeans oppressed the Native Americans. Is that a bad thing. Heck no, in fact I find it a very good thing, as the movie reflects real historical aspects of our society and is not some kinda cliche. Sure, the basic premise of Avatar is probably something we're all familiar with, and one we've seen a lot in films and literature, but that doesn't stop it from being a good one. Now add a future setting, a far away planet, Avatars, some awesome Na'Vi biological magic, Banshee's, some bitchin' RDA weapons and AMPsuits, and you got yourself one hell of a ride. In other words, ticket money well spent.

[Trailbreaker]

We're discussing it because it's captivating and thought provoking. And that's PRECISELY what a film should do - even the ones geared for broad entertainment.

lol, as strange as it sounds, it is pretty interesting. There's so much in this movie that captivated me. The majority of it is the whole world of Pandora. Seeing stuff like the queues, the bio-luminescence, the Hallelujah Mountains, and one of my favorites, the fan lizards, made me think "How the hell do these guys come up with this stuff?!!!"

That's what I love about these kinds of movies. The filmmakers take the time to create huge worlds.

[BIG Tee]

Allow me to put it like this, then:

Favorites aside, I don't believe it's possible to make a case for Transformers: ROTF being a superior film (technical achievements AND storytelling prowess) to Avatar. You can prefer ROTF to Avatar, but I'd like to see you make a case for ROTF having a superior story, character development, visual effects etc. etc. etc.

I'll gladly debate it with you in this thread.

Looks as if everyone will have to agree to disagree on this debate. I go to the movies because I enjoy watching a good movie, to have a date with my wife, and to get away from reality for 2 hours or so. Not to nit pick and pick apart movies. I thoroughly enjoyed both ROTF and Avatar from beginning to end. So Trigger Mike you can say what you want about ROTF it was, IMO, still a better movie just as in your opinion Avatar was the more dominant film. I'm not going to debate you because evidently you are a serious movie critic. I on the other hand go to movies for my viewing pleasure and am unskilled in the art of debating movies.

[Trigger Mike]

lol, as strange as it sounds, it is pretty interesting. There's so much in this movie that captivated me. The majority of it is the whole world of Pandora. Seeing stuff like the queues, the bio-luminescence, the Hallelujah Mountains, and one of my favorites, the fan lizards, made me think "How the hell do these guys come up with this stuff?!!!"

That's what I love about these kinds of movies. The filmmakers take the time to create huge worlds.

If you watch Cameron's documentaries, you'll see that a lot of these crazy creations have been highly inspired by creatures we have right here on earth. The bio-luminescence is a common trait to many deep sea dwellers.

I think Cameron would be the first to tell anyone that the stuff we are yet to discover here on earth is way cooler than anything you can possibly dream up.

Looks as if everyone will have to agree to disagree on this debate. I go to the movies because I enjoy watching a good movie, to have a date with my wife, and to get away from reality for 2 hours or so. Not to nit pick and pick apart movies. I thoroughly enjoyed both ROTF and Avatar from beginning to end. So Trigger Mike you can say what you want about ROTF it was, IMO, still a better movie just as in your opinion Avatar was the more dominant film. I'm not going to debate you because evidently you are a serious movie critic. I on the other hand go to movies for my viewing pleasure and am unskilled in the art of debating movies.

I hate critics.