How about a good film rather than some money-making creation?

[bossimus]

here's a thought... instead of sitting whinging and moaning about films you dont like, go and watch one you do and be done with it!

[uraydo]

here's a thought... instead of sitting whinging and moaning about films you dont like, go and watch one you do and be done with it!

If Transformers wasn't an established concept, I might agree with you.

[Trailbreaker]

Movies are nothing but money making opportunities! That's why movies are made! TO MAKE MONEY!!! Of course, I wouldn't go by that, I wanna make a good story. Now don't get me wrong people, I still think Transformers is one of the coolest movies ever and will always be a great memory of my childhood.

[MitP]

Ever heard of an oxymoron, RealHero? 'Cuz that's exactly what the title of this thread is.

[Shadow]

I'm majorly suprised that Nelson or one of the other moderators didn't close this thread. I think that this is completely disrespectful to Michael. This forum is for people who actully care for and like his work. And if you don't agree, maybe your on the wrong website.

Well Swift... The guy was just speaking his mind. Now his take on things is a little twisted but thats what these bords are for. Anyone has a right to jump on and speak their mind about Bay, Transformers and anything related. Ya most of us think this guy is a moron but he really hasnt said anything that would cause his post to be closed. The moderators are doing their jobs. From a stand point of Bay, Im sure the things this moron said about him dont hurt Bay in the least.

[guitarded]

yeah...its not like Bay is some suicidal Emo Kid hurt by everything bad said about him...

"He's the guy with the 200 million bank account"

[Swift]

yeah...its not like Bay is some suicidal Emo Kid hurt by everything bad said about him...

"He's the guy with the 200 million bank account"

He funny! Sorry, I just had to say my 2 cents about it. Yeah I agree that bay has heard a lifetime of putdowns and crap, but there is nothing anyone can do to wipe that smile and posotive aditute from his face! man, I wish I had 200 mill...

[Michael Do]

I'm a moron.

Fixed.

[Smokescreen_5]

meh

I won't argue that it is one of the most beautiful movies I have ever seen, but so is the Life Aquatic... and that was a great movie.

I also took it as though the person who wrote that was talking about Transformers all together. If it isn't entertainment, then why has it been going on for 24 years now??? Toys, cartoons, movies, video games, puzzles, comic books... yeah.. that seems like a lot of entertainment to me.

[LadiesMan217]

If anything, I do hope the filmmakers understand that more bad-ass doesn't neccesarily equals a better sequel. The first film had too much of anything anyway to be honest so a sequel with more humour, more action etc. would just be disappointing. I've said it before and what I want is a darker, more epic and intense film, with amazing action sequences and all that, but really hope the writers and Michael just doesn't go out and make a "more of anything"-type of sequel that try to be bigger and louder than the original. Everybody is wanting more robot screentime but I hope they get that and don't think we want more robots, and push back Optimus or Starscream for the sake of more new characters.

[Shadow]

If anything, I do hope the filmmakers understand that more bad-ass doesn't neccesarily equals a better sequel. The first film had too much of anything anyway to be honest so a sequel with more humour, more action etc. would just be disappointing. I've said it before and what I want is a darker, more epic and intense film, with amazing action sequences and all that, but really hope the writers and Michael just doesn't go out and make a "more of anything"-type of sequel that try to be bigger and louder than the original. Everybody is wanting more robot screentime but I hope they get that and don't think we want more robots, and push back Optimus or Starscream for the sake of more new characters.

ya I can agree with you on that. To be honest... i would like to see it go the way Star Wars did. I mean not just like Star Wars but Star Wars did have its humor in it... a lot of humor if you think about it. But it had epic battles as well as that dark feel to it and gave you enough screen time for all invalved and didnt push anyone to the back for the sake of someone new being added. Lots of story, lots of humor, lots of explosions and everyone was happy because both sides got their turns in the grand sceam of things to shine. The good guys won then the bad guys came back and kicked some ass then it went back to the good guys. The perfect balance between light and dark. Soooo... why cant Transformers be more like Star Wars in this sence?

[Smokescreen_5]

ya I can agree with you on that. To be honest... i would like to see it go the way Star Wars did. I mean not just like Star Wars but Star Wars did have its humor in it... a lot of humor if you think about it. But it had epic battles as well as that dark feel to it and gave you enough screen time for all invalved and didnt push anyone to the back for the sake of someone new being added. Lots of story, lots of humor, lots of explosions and everyone was happy because both sides got their turns in the grand sceam of things to shine. The good guys won then the bad guys came back and kicked some ass then it went back to the good guys. The perfect balance between light and dark. Soooo... why cant Transformers be more like Star Wars in this sence?

If you noticed.. alot of Star Wars scenes faded to other scenes. This would be where it would be handy to use the rotating faction sign while changing scenes such as in Generation 1's cartoons. Plus its kind of hard to throw in everything that everyone wants without disappointing someone. Unless you want a 6 hour movie.. and I'm sure nobody wants to sit through that.. well.. maybe.. I dunno.. I guess someone might if they could stomach watching these last 3 first 3 episodes of Star Wars.. Bah.. I still hate how they did that.. and Jar Jar.. blah.. stupid aliens..

[RealHero]

This thread can't be closed because I have not insulted Bay like what many haters on AICN do.
All I am saying is that he should not tout himself as a filmmaker but rather, a businessman. Scorcese, Nolan, Singer are filmmakers who don't look at box office receipts to show that their movie is good or was a success. A success for a filmmaker is a good film that is well received by critics and/or fans of the film while the success of a businessman is simply profits.

[r-type]

All I am saying is that he should not tout himself as a filmmaker but rather, a businessman. Scorcese, Nolan, Singer are filmmakers who don't look at box office receipts to show that their movie is good or was a success. A success for a filmmaker is a good film that is well received by critics and/or fans of the film while the success of a businessman is simply profits.

If that doesn't scream fallacy, I don't know what does.

Success is a very fluid concept. It can be what each one of those directors deem it to be(or the studios who fork over the money to begin with), not you. Since when did success have a playbook? If Bay's intention from the get go, was to entertain the masses and still make a little "coin" in his pocket, I'd call that a success. If Scorsese's intention was exactly the same for Mean Streets, then I'd say he failed. But it's safe to assume that he wasn't. Different intention, different definition of success.

Secondly, until Goodwill decides to get into moviemaking game, it will continue to be called show-business.



Sidenote(not directed towards RH): I find it funny when I read elsewhere, when it comes to validating the success of TF: The brand as a whole, fanboys talk about how much money the toys make, all of the lame spin-offs, the longevity of nothing more than material items shelled out by a company (Hasbro) out to make a buck. They also accept repaints (nothing more than a cost-cutting technique) as long as they are given a half-ass backstory saying they are a different character.

But they can't accept TF: A MB Film (or any other MB film for that matter), as a success when given the same style of "qualifiers" (i.e., financial success vs. critical success, etc.)

[RealHero]

Hey man, we are dealing with films. Yes, certain films are supposed to be entertaining but with entertainment should come something of quality ie a good film. T2 was very entertaining while also being a good film and it made its cash. Bayformers may have been entertaining but it was a bad film. I think we should push for a film industry that creates entertaining blockbusters that are well-made films. I.e. good story, good characters, well-acted, well-structured and so on....

[Bay_Fan_Gibson]

I think Bay did a good job with Transformers.

I'm a Bay fan but I'm not here to kiss butt.
The fact is that Transformers did have a lot of flaws, but most of them had to do with the script. I don't think there's much in the way of defending the jokes, which honestly were pretty f'n lame.

The bot designs also could have been a lot better....Transformer robot forms should look like they are made from the car/plane parts that they transform into, no?

When I watch Transformers I see a ton of potential.....and it did end up pretty darn good.
Address the jokes, the bot designs, and the script and you have an outright winner. Let's hope that happens for Transformers 2!

[Smokescreen_5]

I think Bay did a good job with Transformers.

I'm a Bay fan but I'm not here to kiss butt.
The fact is that Transformers did have a lot of flaws, but most of them had to do with the script. I don't think there's much in the way of defending the jokes, which honestly were pretty f'n lame.

The bot designs also could have been a lot better....Transformer robot forms should look like they are made from the car/plane parts that they transform into, no?

When I watch Transformers I see a ton of potential.....and it did end up pretty darn good.
Address the jokes, the bot designs, and the script and you have an outright winner. Let's hope that happens for Transformers 2!

Hmm.. I'm not sure what you are referring to about the car/plane parts, because Bay made special efforts to show viewers that the parts all moved and fit somewhere so it wouldn't look like some sort of mutational thing like Beast Machines. If you have the movie with the 2nd disk it shows how computer artists spent many a days on making sure every piece of a transformer moved somewhere and kept its original vehicle part..

There were flaws but pretty much every movie has flaws.. just look at 3 Men and a Baby where a boy is hiding behind some curtains.. or Wizard of Oz where some guy hung himself on the set... errr.. yeah.. freaky right? Theres just so much stuff that is wanted to be put into the Transformers movie and its really hard to cram everything ya want into a 2 hour movie.. I'm sure if Bay could have, and if viewers wouldn't mind sitting thru it... he would have made it 5 hours long.. I know I wouldn't have minded..

Actually it is simply your opinion that they are anything other than quality. I'm thinking even if The Bard were alive today and wrote and directed a summer blockbuster (because you know he would have), you still wouldn't be satisfied. But that's okay, that is your opinion -- I just don't agree with your POV.

Heh heh Beej.. I'd have to agree with ya here.. cuz.. I wasn't a Bay fan.. but I had seen all his films before Transformers and I liked them all! I had no idea Bay produced them. If I like a film, then obviously I'm entertained.. so as far as where RealHero is saying he wasn't entertained.. I have no clue whats going thru his head. I'm not easily amused by a lot of things but I like all of his movies well.. except for Armageddon.. thats the only one so far I didn't like.. Sounds like someone is a lil anal about things and has something stuck up their derrier. Maybe they need to get a girlfriend... Heh heh heh.. hmm.. uhh.. yeah.. anyways.. I liked the movie..

[darthrage]

How about make both a good film AND a money making film? That way its
best for both the viewers and the studios.

I think what you have described below is what YOU would want if you were to direct the film.

There's nothing really wrong with the way he made the film. Sure some people mentioned there was not enough robot screen time and there were too many close up shots but with a limited budget, that is what you get.

Let's just say that with $143 million, they maxed out the amount of screen time they can get with the robots

And actually the close-up shots you see of robots transforming is called DETAIL. They spent so much time and money rendering those ILM shots so that we can see all the little pieces involved in the transformation process. Pulling the camera back would just cheapen the whole process.

They made a great film and many fans have liked it enough to contribute their hard earned cash to its box office gross with repeat viewings including myself because frankly, we enjoyed it and it was hella good.

The big problem I have is this....Bay seems to think that making a profit is better than actually making a good film. For example, making sure that he does not go over budget rather than saying f%$£ the budget!, if more money is required to make the film better then more money it is.
Transformers was just a pure money-making excercise. Bay tried to cater for every single demographic in order to maximise profits...sounds like business thinking. The casting of Megan Fox, Shia, the soldiers, the predictable comedy, very easily digestable story and obviously the amazing graphics. The last thing this film was about were the Transformers. They were just a vehicle for Bay to have his own money-making franchise. It will be a very sad day when the quality of a film is seen through the eyes of $$$ rather than actual qaulity filmmaking.

A few pointers for Bay, hopefully he'll listen:

- Don't cut so much. Being assaulted with so many images loses any drama of story and does not make the audience care for the character

-Putting too many jokes in a film makes it a COMEDY nothing else. Last time I checked, Transformers was not a pure COMEDY but an action/adventure.

-Better script? A script that actually has some structure with a story. Watch Terminator 2 again for how to make a quality blockbuster.

-Stop using slow-motion all the time. Using it is good, for when it is right. But when you just keep on using it, it just becomes rather annoying

-For the sequel, actually try and connect Transformers with pop culture and put some music in there from actual good artists. The soundtrack from those rock bands was awful and did nothing to really instil Transformers in the minds of today.

That's all for now, I'm sure there's lots more. Seriously Bay, you need to listen to some of your critics; not all but some are right....

[Bay_Fan_Gibson]

Well I am sure the computer effects people spent a lot of long hours building the bots, but I can really understand where the haters are coming from when they say it looks like tin foil.

I think one of the appeals of Transformers was that the bots had clearly identifiable car parts that made up their bodies. Bumblebee's feet is the front of a Volkswagon Beetle, his chest is the roof of the car, and he has the wheels of the car coming out the side. Original Jazz has a freakin' Porsche hood sticking out as his chest, and the spoiler was on his leg, that's so cool! See what I mean?

I'm not a super hardcore 80s Transformers fan, but I can see the magic that's there. A Porsche that splits in half and pops up to reveal a robot. Decepticon war machines pushing the civilized Autobots too far....I can see why the fanboys are so passionate about this stuff. I hope they and Bay can find some common ground for the sequel. Personally, I just want the bots improved and the kiddie jokes toned down a little.

[Smokescreen_5]

Well I am sure the computer effects people spent a lot of long hours building the bots, but I can really understand where the haters are coming from when they say it looks like tin foil.

I think one of the appeals of Transformers was that the bots had clearly identifiable car parts that made up their bodies. Bumblebee's feet is the front of a Volkswagon Beetle, his chest is the roof of the car, and he has the wheels of the car coming out the side. Original Jazz has a freakin' Porsche hood sticking out as his chest, and the spoiler was on his leg, that's so cool! See what I mean?

I'm not a super hardcore 80s Transformers fan, but I can see the magic that's there. A Porsche that splits in half and pops up to reveal a robot. Decepticon war machines pushing the civilized Autobots too far....I can see why the fanboys are so passionate about this stuff. I hope they and Bay can find some common ground for the sequel. Personally, I just want the bots improved and the kiddie jokes toned down a little.

So in other words.. you were hoping to see a movie based off Transformers such as the Alternators line...? Hmm.. well.. Bay said he was goin to do it how HE wanted to do it. I think it turned out fine. I can see where every single piece goes. Prime's windshield is his chest. Jazz's spoiler is his shield. Ironhides' Muffler system is his big guns! The only one that is confusing is Megatron since he's still in his cybertronian form.

[Darth Stitch]

Well I am sure the computer effects people spent a lot of long hours building the bots, but I can really understand where the haters are coming from when they say it looks like tin foil.

I think one of the appeals of Transformers was that the bots had clearly identifiable car parts that made up their bodies. Bumblebee's feet is the front of a Volkswagon Beetle, his chest is the roof of the car, and he has the wheels of the car coming out the side. Original Jazz has a freakin' Porsche hood sticking out as his chest, and the spoiler was on his leg, that's so cool! See what I mean?

I'm not a super hardcore 80s Transformers fan, but I can see the magic that's there. A Porsche that splits in half and pops up to reveal a robot.

I think that's a matter of perception and opinion with regards to the character designs. For Movie!Bumblebee, I can clearly see the car doors of his Camaro form becoming his "wings/sensor array" and the other individual parts that indicate the car he turns into. Same with Optimus and the other 'Bots and the 'Cons. I can still tell what goes where and the movie delivers a lot of detailed shots for that, especially with Optimus Prime's transformation sequence. We'll probably end up agreeing to disagree for this point - you don't like the designs; I like them. No biggie.

IMHO, The cartoons have a somewhat more simplistic design and yeah, they're cartoons, the designs would have worked there. Maybe if you wanted to create a animated film in the style of Beowulf or Pixar, those classic G1 designs, especially the way they've been rendered recently in Dreamwave comics or IDW, would have really stood out. But I don't think that'll fly in a live action movie.

[Bay_Fan_Gibson]

I think I understand Bay's "boxy" argument.....meaning that seeing Optimus Prime as a bunch of blocks held together would look stupid. I agree with that completely. It simply wouldn't work.

I also think another way to phrase it is that the robots split into too few pieces when transforming. The original 80s Bumblebee was basically two pieces....you pull the toy Beetle in half, one half becomes the legs, the other the body, and thats it....its too simple, too boxy.

I think the critics' argument goes the complete other way....that the new bot designs broke into too many pieces. When new movie Bumblebee transforms, it looks like it's breaking into a thousand pieces before reforming! I think that's where the tin foil/scrap metal argument comes from.

My personal ideal would be somewhere right in the middle of the above two examples....and yes I think the Alternators line is close to that.
Not super boxy.....but not super complicated either. In the middle to look faithful enough to the 80s cartoons, but yet allows room for some creative freedom. This is what I hope for the TF2 bots.

[S!gma]

I think I understand Bay's "boxy" argument.....meaning that seeing Optimus Prime as a bunch of blocks held together would look stupid. I agree with that completely. It simply wouldn't work.

I also think another way to phrase it is that the robots split into too few pieces when transforming. The original 80s Bumblebee was basically two pieces....you pull the toy Beetle in half, one half becomes the legs, the other the body, and thats it....its too simple, too boxy.

I think the critics' argument goes the complete other way....that the new bot designs broke into too many pieces. When new movie Bumblebee transforms, it looks like it's breaking into a thousand pieces before reforming! I think that's where the tin foil/scrap metal argument comes from.

My personal ideal would be somewhere right in the middle of the above two examples....and yes I think the Alternators line is close to that.
Not super boxy.....but not super complicated either. In the middle to look faithful enough to the 80s cartoons, but yet allows room for some creative freedom. This is what I hope for the TF2 bots.

I agree completley, and I even agree with you to an extent on the car parts shifting.

There were a few pictures a few years back I think by Don [Figuroea] of the alternators being upgraded from their old 80s forms to their new car parts, and we got an idea of what the TF insides actually looked like and how the car parts fit into the robot body.

... this was all I could find But I think it works.
http://www.themichaelsmith.com/image...merConcept.JPG

A concept by Michael Smith, he says Hasbro contacted him and I dunno what happened but I do know that Hasbro is Stupid as hell so I can assume.

My point is the designs for the TFs needs to find a middleground, so Bay doesnt like the Boxy Over-Armor look, and fans dont like the million parts of crap that mean nothing, so I think the middle ground is to use the thousands of parts in a regular car more effectivley.

ALSO: Bay [or whoever finally decides these things] Reaaaaaaaaaally needs to rethink the paneling as armor idea, the exterior body of the car should be completley used over the robot! in the movie the entire roof of bumblebees car folds 5 or 6 times and then cheats itself length and width-wise to fit seemlessly into his back, while his arms and legs are covered with yellow parts that come from nowhere and no one can make heads or tails of.

The robots should be as boxy as their vehicle modes! if they transform into a Dodge Viper let them be sleek and smooth but if it Tfs into a Reliant K or Box-C there should be some right angles and squareness.