should bay do what they did with POTC 2-3

[megatron42]

do you think bay should do TF 2 and film the third or not

[siwel]

do you think bay should do TF 2 and film the third or not

No way. He should do each film alone, as a standalone piece. They did the Matrix sequels at the same time, and they stank, and they don't make any sense as individual films. They made the Lords of the Rings all at once, and they were great, but they only make sense all together. Each TF film should be its own grand slam.

And, there is a steep learning curve on these films. Bay didn't think there would be so much solid fan involvement and support for the first one, or that so many adults would love it. He should take his time and continue to engage the fan community.

[Bumblebee1983]

No way. He should do each film alone, as a standalone piece. They did the Matrix sequels at the same time, and they stank, and they don't make any sense as individual films. They made the Lords of the Rings all at once, and they were great, but they only make sense all together. Each TF film should be its own grand slam.

And, there is a steep learning curve on these films. Bay didn't think there would be so much solid fan involvement and support for the first one, or that so many adults would love it. He should take his time and continue to engage the fan community.

I agree Swivel, on all those counts.

[xXRavenXx]

My stance on Pirates is that they did two 3 hour 2 star story pics with CGI to make up for a story void of heart. Unlike the first film it was a recycling of the same old RUM jokes and other things. They could have gotten 1 good pic out of the two mediocre ones. I love the first Pirates, and love the first transformers... dear God this would be a mistake. But as 100% of people agree so far... I think I'm preaching to the choir.

[Shadow]

NO!! I think he needs to take his time and do each one as a stand alone and take that time to make the best movie he can.

[Beej]

3? Oy vey.

[Bumblebee1983]

3? Oy vey.

Yes three...more if possible.....:D

*jumps up and down like Ratchet when Ironhide threatens to take out the parents.*

I think this franchise can go far. :cool:

[Shadow]

Yes three...more if possible.....:D

*jumps up and down like Ratchet when Ironhide threatens to take out the parents.*

I think this franchise can go far. :cool:Ya what you said!!! I think after the first 3 movies are done Bay and only Bay should do at least one Prequel Movie. Maybe the Cybertron war and go a little deeper into the back story on how the Decepticons became who they are and the takeover by the Decepticons of Cybertron. It really has that Star Wars feel to it. Like how the the Republic became the Empire in the prequel movies of Star Wars. Hay he could even make it a three parter just as Star Wars did.

[Bumblebee1983]

Ya what you said!!! I think after the first 3 movies are done Bay and only Bay should do at least one Prequel Movie. Maybe the Cybertron war and go a little deeper into the back story on how the Decepticons became who they are and the takeover by the Decepticons of Cybertron. It really has that Star Wars feel to it. Like how the the Republic became the Empire in the prequel movies of Star Wars. Hay he could even make it a three parter just as Star Wars did.

Damn dude......that would be realllllly cool. :cool:

[Shadow]

Ya what you said!!! I think after the first 3 movies are done Bay and only Bay should do at least one Prequel Movie. Maybe the Cybertron war and go a little deeper into the back story on how the Decepticons became who they are and the takeover by the Decepticons of Cybertron. It really has that Star Wars feel to it. Like how the the Republic became the Empire in the prequel movies of Star Wars. Hay he could even make it a three parter just as Star Wars did.


Damn dude......that would be realllllly cool. :cool:Im telling you Bay really needs to take on some of us as at least script writers helpers or something. Megatron, you, myself and a few others have really came up with some really cool ideas and fresh new things that could be added to any transformers movie, cartoon, book or whatever.:D

[Bumblebee1983]

Im telling you Bay really needs to take on some of us as at least script writers helpers or something. Megatron, you, myself and a few others have really came up with some really cool ideas and fresh new things that could be added to any transformers movie, cartoon, book or whatever.:D

*sigh*

If only.....*shakes head*

In a perfect world, maybe, but this isn't a perfect world. :cool:

[Shadow]

Ya what you said!!! I think after the first 3 movies are done Bay and only Bay should do at least one Prequel Movie. Maybe the Cybertron war and go a little deeper into the back story on how the Decepticons became who they are and the takeover by the Decepticons of Cybertron. It really has that Star Wars feel to it. Like how the the Republic became the Empire in the prequel movies of Star Wars. Hay he could even make it a three parter just as Star Wars did.


Damn dude......that would be realllllly cool. :cool:


Im telling you Bay really needs to take on some of us as at least script writers helpers or something. Megatron, you, myself and a few others have really came up with some really cool ideas and fresh new things that could be added to any transformers movie, cartoon, book or whatever.:D


*sigh*

If only.....*shakes head*

In a perfect world, maybe, but this isn't a perfect world. :cool:Do you think Bay or anyone from his staff reads any of these posts? If not they need to!

[Bumblebee1983]

Do you think Bay or anyone from his staff reads any of these posts? If not they need to!

I'm sure that Bay does, considering he's a moderator...

Man oh man....that would be too cool though if something of ours ended up in a script.

Hey Bay, get Orci and Kurtzman over here to see these ideas!!! :D

[megatron42]

i agree they should.. shadow your right we all have

[siwel]

I wouldn't expect to see any serious non-Earth material, at least not from Bay. That sort of things would end up being close to 100% CGI and Bay is all about the real life, live action stunts and action and humor.

[megatron42]

i voted no as well

[xAgonyxScenex]

No way. He should do each film alone, as a standalone piece. They did the Matrix sequels at the same time, and they stank, and they don't make any sense as individual films. They made the Lords of the Rings all at once, and they were great, but they only make sense all together. Each TF film should be its own grand slam.

And, there is a steep learning curve on these films. Bay didn't think there would be so much solid fan involvement and support for the first one, or that so many adults would love it. He should take his time and continue to engage the fan community.

3rd matrix was awesome...the second one sucked...except for that car chase sequence...that was amazing

[MitP]

Michael's never struck me as the "back-to-back-to-back" kind of guy, so I voted no.

Every Michael Bay movie is almost like an event; he invests so much time and energy into one project, there's no time to be thinking "What are we gonna do in part three?"

[Beej]

3rd matrix was awesome...the second one sucked...except for that car chase sequence...that was amazing

See I'm exactly the opposite, loved #1, #2 was okay, not so crazy about #3, and I wanted to be... Back to the Future -- I just recall the first one (but I want my next car to have a flux capacitator and feed off garbage). Pirates, um, first one still the favorite. Terminator, first still the favorite, but T2 was close. Harry Potter still liked the first one best (to date). Star Wars, #4 and #6. Jaws... the first one. Indiana Jones - #3. So I can't say I don't like sequels, but on an average, the first does tend to be the fav.

[wingzero]

I wouldn't expect to see any serious non-Earth material, at least not from Bay. That sort of things would end up being close to 100% CGI and Bay is all about the real life, live action stunts and action and humor.

Well, if he introduces the Quintessons and involves humans on non-Earth scenarios, he would be able to make more elements from the anime series to come to life and at the same time deliver a broader picture of Transformers and Cybertron...

Quintessons should be part of the 3rd movie if Mr.Bay and his crew really want to have a smash hit able to please sci-fi viewers of series like Star Trek, SG-1, Star Wars and such...

I think that introducing the Quintessons in the 2nd movie having Sector 7 agents tell that they knew about Transformers creatures and the AllSpark thanks to the Quintessons... well, that could be a good start for having even Unicron in the 3rd movie.. or maybe then end the 3rd movie with Unicron approaching Earth.... (and at that point everyone would pray for Mr.Bay and Mr.Spielberg to direct and produce a 4th movie...).
I think they could be able to deliver an excellent serie of movies and if they would follow these little ideas they could just make them that bit darker and heartbreaking to have any critics shut up and finally understand that Transformers it's not a just for little kids saga.

[siwel]

3rd matrix was awesome...the second one sucked...except for that car chase sequence...that was amazing

The only interesting parts of the third one were scenes where they stood around talking about history and the matrix and the architect, like in the first one. The fights in the second and third movies were boring. The CGI was obvious, they ran way too long, and no one ever got hurt. Weak.

[siwel]

Well, if he introduces the Quintessons...
well, that could be a good start for having even Unicron in the 3rd movie..

The Quints? Eh, maybe, in very small doses, but probably not.

And Unicron is right out, no way. He's all-powerful and all-big. Not an interesting character, not an interesting tool for story-telling.

They need to keep it on the same level and just turn it to 11 on the stunts and fight choreography and dialog.

[MitP]

And Unicron is right out, no way. He's all-powerful and all-big. Not an interesting character, not an interesting tool for story-telling.

Unicron was never meant to be a "character". He's a force of nature, plain and simple - like a hurricane, or the giant meteor from ARMAGEDDON.

As a be-all and end-all threat, Unicron is pretty intimidating.

[Xaniss]

I voted the why should he do that - Mr Bay doesn't strike me as the type to follow what others have done.

I myself would like to see a prequel happen - the comics didn't have enough depth for me, just left me wanting to know more of what happened and get into Bumblebee's head more.

[xAgonyxScenex]

part of me once to say yes..just so i can have more robot carnage sooner...but another part just wants it all done right

[Sam_Witwickey001]

They should make another movie but it should be in the transformers origonal movies.....Like remake the cartoon ones....

[nathan alexander]

The truth about The Pirates of the Caribbean and the Matrix is they are BAD movies, written and directed by untalented people(the Wachowski brothers and Gore Verbinski are not top rated filmmakers). It has nothing to do with making two films at the same time. Just look at The Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson managed to deliver three GREAT movies because the right people worked on them.
If Michael Bay wanted to, he wouldn't have any trouble making Transformers 2 and 3 together.

[siwel]

The truth about The Pirates of the Caribbean and the Matrix is they are BAD movies, written and directed by untalented people(the Wachowski brothers and Gore Verbinski are not top rated filmmakers).

Let's not get crazy here. The first Matrix movie was a solid, all-around good film. It had a clever concept, a great visual style, ground-breaking special effects, and it was fun to watch. The Wacho bros did a good job creating something new and interesting and exciting. They said their goal was to make a live action Ghost in the Shell, and they knocked it out of the park.

They just should have left it alone instead of tacking on a lot of obvious, boring crap in the form of two sequels. Call them one-hit wonders if you want, but The Matrix was good.

[Sam_Witwickey001]

They make good films and not so good films all the time!!!

[Xaniss]

They should make another movie but it should be in the transformers origonal movies.....Like remake the cartoon ones....

Why do this? I am assuming you mean remake the animated Transformers movie with Unicron/Junkions/Optimus dying/Hot Rod metamorphosis etc...

If this happens fans already know what will happen in the movie and the bitching and whinging will ensue over crap because the movies wasn't done as exactly the same as the original.

No the TF movie(s) needs to carve it's own path in movie success - take the characters into a whole new realm that fans have not seen before. That concept will astonish audiences and keep the franchise alive, while keeping in with the spirit of the original characters that everyone has grown to love and hate over the years. That's my bit.

[Sam_Witwickey001]

No not that...not the series...just the trasformers movies

[nathan alexander]

Call them one-hit wonders if you want, but The Matrix was good.[/quote]

The Matrix was a ground breaking film... It can be classed in the same category as Jason and the Argonauts, Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, and even Titanic.
But It was only about the visual effects, the story was secondary. Whereas James Cameron would combine both. The Terminator was not only visually awesome, it had a great story as well. The Wachowski brothers showed their storytelling limitations in the sequels... When the special effects were no longer the main focus, the story came up short.
A great filmmaker combines both. Kurosawa, Cameron, Spielberg, Lean, Scott, and Kubrick are all great storytellers. Even Michael Bay. That's why major projects like Transformers and Lord of the Rings were successful. The right man was in charge.
The Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy is technically good, with great visual effects, but the story, the acting, and the script is laughable.
We all remember Tron. At the time it was ground breaking... But who remembers the director, Steven Lisberger?

[moe]

do you think bay should do TF 2 and film the third or not
Yeah they should do them all at once. That way it will be the original cast, so they wont have to find a replacement just in case one of the Transformers has an accident and gets hurt or dies or something. LOL

[megatron42]

ok here's my reason frank should voice megatron... say at the same time hugo
is doing a movie how can he voice megatron and film another movie

[Bumblebee1983]

ok here's my reason frank should voice megatron... say at the same time hugo
is doing a movie how can he voice megatron and film another movie

Simple: Hugo just can't do anymore movies until TF is finished. :D


*runs away* Too easy of an answer, I know!!!

[megatron42]

look at the movie national treasure book of secrets nicholas cage is in the others isn't
from the frist one

[siwel]

ok here's my reason frank should voice megatron... say at the same time hugo
is doing a movie how can he voice megatron and film another movie

LOL. Yeah right, there's no way Hugo could get away from his other movie for 20 or 30 minutes to record "I am Megatron" and "Give me the cube, boy!" Come on, it's voice acting, and only a handful of lines at that! It takes a day or two at most.

[siwel]

Yeah they should do them all at once. That way it will be the original cast, so they wont have to find a replacement just in case one of the Transformers has an accident and gets hurt or dies or something. LOL

LOL! and what if there is a TF mechanics strike? Who will fix them?

[siwel]

But It was only about the visual effects, the story was secondary. Whereas James Cameron would combine both. The Terminator was not only visually awesome, it had a great story as well.

Back up there, chief. Yes, a huge chunk of the Matrix appeal is visual, granted. But the Terminator did not have an incredibly novel and engaging plot: Killer robot from future tries to kill helpless woman, but is conveniently thwarted by man from future. It was basically just a chase movie. The Matrix was totally on this level: Man discovers humanity has been secretly enslaved by machines and joins war against them.

Keanu Reeves did not help much here, but then again, Schwarzenegger didn't really contribute to the storytelling much either. Talk about characters. Terminator had Sarah (average woman becomes super-madonna, cool), Kyle (oddly average soldier who doesn't contribute much, blah), and T100 (unstoppable killing machine who learns to stop, aw). The Matrix had a wider cast with more diverse and interesting backgrounds and motivations. A man searching for a messiah, an oracle, a kid wanting to be a superhero, a traitor who wants to be enslaved.

And I don't think a movie's success can really be judged by how well people remember the director.

[siwel]

The Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy is technically good, with great visual effects, but the story, the acting, and the script is laughable.
We all remember Tron. At the time it was ground breaking... But who remembers the director, Steven Lisberger?

Agreed, Pirates was weak, doesn't deserve a second screening, and is totally forgettable.

But this is interesting. "We all remember Tron." We do. It does not stand up to the test of time and the acting does not impress, but the visuals are iconic and the concept, of machines as people and people integrated into machines, is intriguing. It is hard to stare at those florescent costumes, but I'd almost rather watch Tron than a lot of modern movies, just because you can see that they were trying to be really novel and clever and they almost did something good.

[nathan alexander]

[quote=siwel;5775]Back up there, chief. Yes, a huge chunk of the Matrix appeal is visual, granted. But the Terminator did not have an incredibly novel and engaging plot

A film has to capture the attention of the audience, and not let go. If it loses the viewers, then it's failed. For that reason, simple is best. The Terminator was Cameron's first, he wrote a basic story that he was able to turn into a cult, memorable film. He only achieved this due to his incredible talent. If it had been in the hands of another filmmaker then it could have been a disaster. Maybe if Cameron had written and directed The Matrix it would have been better? It's down to the ability of the man in charge.
If you look at Steven Spielberg, or Ridley Scott, their first films had the most simple themes, but they worked (Dual, Jaws, The Duellists, Alien). And those films are remembered in large parts as their greatest achievements. For example, for all it's outstanding visuals, Blade Runner was over complicated and incoherent. Not even Scott could save it.
The Wachowski brothers spun a web they could not escape from. Too many characters, over intricate, and excruciatingly boring...

[LadiesMan217]

Nah, he should not.

[siwel]

Wow. Duel? Really? In the same breath as Jaws and Alien? Not even close. Duel is white noise to help insomiacs get their forty winks.

Sure, another director might have done something else, something better with the Matrix, but it's not boring. Maybe it gets boring on too many viewings. How often are you watching it? You might want to consider cutting down. There was a kid on here who said he watched Transformers twice a day, every day. I think that's a bit much. Moderation, people! Just like Tanqueray!

[wingzero]

[quote=siwel;5775]Back up there, chief. Yes, a huge chunk of the Matrix appeal is visual, granted. But the Terminator did not have an incredibly novel and engaging plot

A film has to capture the attention of the audience, and not let go. If it loses the viewers, then it's failed. For that reason, simple is best. The Terminator was Cameron's first, he wrote a basic story that he was able to turn into a cult, memorable film. He only achieved this due to his incredible talent. If it had been in the hands of another filmmaker then it could have been a disaster. Maybe if Cameron had written and directed The Matrix it would have been better? It's down to the ability of the man in charge.
If you look at Steven Spielberg, or Ridley Scott, their first films had the most simple themes, but they worked (Dual, Jaws, The Duellists, Alien). And those films are remembered in large parts as their greatest achievements. For example, for all it's outstanding visuals, Blade Runner was over complicated and incoherent. Not even Scott could save it.
The Wachowski brothers spun a web they could not escape from. Too many characters, over intricate, and excruciatingly boring...

Actually the Matrix main concept and basic elements are directly derived from Serial Experiments Lain japanese anime/manga that was released in Japan some years before Matrix even went into production (although obviously officially it's not, but just read the Lain manga and watch the anime and you'll see it).
The first Matrix movie was an introduction and it ended with a cliffhanger when Neo can fly in the matrix world (long debated on forums if it was a flashback or a flashforward..). The second movie Matrix Reloaded was the best one, it gave pathos to the main elements which were Neo,Trinity and the semi-Gods they were actually fighting. Also it featured outstanding, top-notch and for the time the best CGI effects (not the best ones anymore since Transformers got released...) along with a lot of action and many new characters. Then Matrix Revolutions was so disappointing.... it seemed like the production decided to follow a different path than the japanese anime Lain, and they got it all wrong. They wanted to have Neo look like a modern Christ, while the main concept that Lain is based on simply tells that there are different levels of reality and to not trust the first God-wannabe that wants to look like God while in reality it's just a semi-God. That is the basic idea behind the concept, but the Matrix production decided to mix and distort things up, putting in elements of the christian religion and others. That was just wrong, along with all the confused part of Neo having his power in the real world.. they hinted to that but they didn't develop it further, while in Lain was very well developed instead.

[siwel]

Oh yeah, I know the Wacho bros used a lot of anime in trying to explain their vision for this film to the studios. I'm sure they borrowed tons, and I'm sure they got a lot wrong. But they still made a cool flick.

[DaHaRaN]

lol.... this thread kinda got off topic hahahahaha. Its kinda funny. I am some what worried about this sequel. The reason why I'm worried about it is because Mr.Bay I don't think originally wanted to make sequels out of it but he had the writers leave enough openings in the story to expand or explore other directions. The strongest three movies ever made telling the same story is Lord of the Rings and nobody can deny that. The reason was JR Tolkin was not a writer, he was a story teller. If you think of Starwars the story is basically modeled right after Lord Of The Rings. Sorry Mr.Lucas. Starwars just got made as a movie first and was visually revolutionary. As was Lord of the rings. I've yet to see a CG character rendered I liked more than Golum.

Sequels in general come with a can of worms. Fan's expect you to be as revolutionary as the first movie, tell a continuing story thats just as engaging if not better than the first one. Which is almost impossible to do cause of the psychology of people by nature. Its no longer a new experience and therefore one is not as engaged with it the second or even third time around.

I think if your going to do a Trilogy you should plan to do one from the beginning. The plot will be stronger with the screen writers, the story over all will have more continuity, you won't have casting problems, the production crew will know what to expect as well.

[raddimus]

I am new and this is a quote;
"I am some what worried about this sequel. The reason why I'm worried about it is because Mr.Bay I don't think originally wanted to make sequels out of it but he had the writers leave enough openings in the story to expand or explore other directions."

"I heard it was already in works...part 2 during the release of t1. I personally think it was meant to be that way. I have no prob with this.
Though I thought the reference to devastator/brawl was a mistake! As DEVASTATOR was a decepticon formed of multiple decepticons in the form of construction equipement....hhhmmmm...; And the destruction of jazz;" A fanboy thing though."

[bliss81]

well, i asked orci on dons site if they were going to write the movie with a sequel in mind. he replied that they were just focusing on this next installment.

[raddimus]

I figured as much; thanks for the info/update. I just hope bay doesn't throw popular names out there, for the sake of havving that name in the movie. Though if he does I'm still gonna see it. and i'll probably still like it.
although that tank which shoulda been called brawl; is akin to calling proffesor-x of the x-men movies collossus,and wolverine being called proffesor-x.

[siwel]

If you think of Starwars the story is basically modeled right after Lord Of The Rings.

If you want to go there, Star Wars is a rip off of a lot of things before you ever get to Lord of the Rings. The two biggies being Kurasawa's Hidden Fortress (which has the droids, Leia, Obi-wan, the Empire, and the Rebellion) and Herbert's Dune (which has a desert planet, a Chosen One, a father who tries and fails to save the universe, only to be replaced by his twin children, primarily his son who takes up the burden of magical leadership while his daughter becomes a political leader).

[raddimus]

swivel I'm going there; And not only did I see and read frank herbert's dune along with lord of the rings. Though all these stories may contain similarities and characters faced similiar circumstances. The mwere all different and unique in their settings and the endings. Ipersonally don't remember the emperor,looking for spice or rings. But I think you might of missed my point; so let me digress. In your terms of what we are speaking of it would be goerge lucas during the new starwars movies saying were gonna go ahead and change darthvaders name to say jar-jar-binks as this character has proven to be popular with the kids orsay lets call jar jar, luke skywalker as this was also a popular character. no my friend I think you misunderstood my point... All movies/ directors,writers,etc. are inspired and influenced by something so a film will always have some similarities to what the makers of the film were influenced or inspired by,but thats not to say no film can be original. It seems you might be being an extremist in your view of starwars duneetc. not being original films.;)

[siwel]

I am many things, and an extremist is one of them!

First, I was just jumping on Daharan's bandwagon. He was gently knocking Star Wars as stealing from LotR, and I roughly knocked Star Wars by pointing out that it steals tons from lots of folks.

As for your point about sequels and trilogies, I agree that you're likely to get a better trilogy if you plan it all out as one big project (the novel LotR was originally meant to be one huge book, not a trilogy at all!). But I don't think we need to worry too much about Bay runnning roughshod over the TF universe. Yes, he screwed up the tank's name. But I think he firmly appreciates, now if not before, what a huge adult fan base TF has. He may make a lot of directorial/artistic decisions that seem out of left field, but I don't believe he's going to mess with the core of the lore.

But come on, Star Wars steals WAY too much from Dune. Seriously, a desert planet with huge worms, twin children, the Chosen One with magical powers, the son replacing the father ... it's just too many things!

[Bumblebee1983]

I am many things, and an extremist is one of them!

First, I was just jumping on Daharan's bandwagon. He was gently knocking Star Wars as stealing from LotR, and I roughly knocked Star Wars by pointing out that it steals tons from lots of folks.

As for your point about sequels and trilogies, I agree that you're likely to get a better trilogy if you plan it all out as one big project (the novel LotR was originally meant to be one huge book, not a trilogy at all!). But I don't think we need to worry too much about Bay runnning roughshod over the TF universe. Yes, he screwed up the tank's name. But I think he firmly appreciates, now if not before, what a huge adult fan base TF has. He may make a lot of directorial/artistic decisions that seem out of left field, but I don't believe he's going to mess with the core of the lore.

But come on, Star Wars steals WAY too much from Dune. Seriously, a desert planet with huge worms, twin children, the Chosen One with magical powers, the son replacing the father ... it's just too many things!

Not only that, but Lucas takes from Tolkien (somewhat loosely)....and Tolkien takes from old Norse legends....it's all a cycle in the good vs. evil part of the world.

[raddimus]

ok, I here/ see your guys points; with that said I must defend mr lucas in the regards of stealing from dune and lord of the rings. First and foremost stealing is a strong word; he might of been influenced by these stories,but with that said,you must admit visually they all three were completly different movies in herberts novel not movie the assasin guild that is capable of pschycological & physical manipulations of others and themselvs but the force was something more I want to say a religion but only few were capable of manipulating it. Goerge also did documentaries saying he wanted a story that would live throughout the ages. he looked at the arthur legends and j.r and how they had lasted through the ages. He did just that;point being were even discussing his film. I personally think he might of borrowed some concepts like the father taking over for the father,but as I recall in dune the father wasn't evil. I don't ever remember herbert or j.r. giving any credit to the sources that they borrowed from.not that they had too gandolph was actually merlin from the king arthuer stories written by thomas malory.oh yhea and herbert took the strife between arther and his son and applied it to the father and son in dune.I mean come on guys do you really think goerge plagerised these other stories or was he merely like all writers and directors influenced by others?AS for bay and tf I'm sure he'll do a great job just like the last one.The only complaint was the name typo. I'm sure I'll love the next one too.

[raddimus]

anyways as I'm sure you have seen me post just don't make DINOBOTS that arent DINOBOTS is all I'm saying.Hence the name DINO-bots

[siwel]

Look, I'm a professional editor and writer and I'm all too familiar with the fact that there is almost nothing new under the sun. Everything is an update of something else. My rant is that when it's your turn to tell a story, you shouldn't take three dozen characters, settings, and concepts from the same source, because then you are just stealing, and it's lazy.

Tolkien was trying to create a cosmology that combined his passion for dead languages and cultures with his Christian faith. Herbert was trying to explore real science fiction concepts about age, immortality, prescience, and politics. Lucas wanted to tell an artchetypal story in the vein of his beloved rocket ranger serial flicks. I just think Tolkien and Herbert put a lot more original thought and creativity into their projects.

And Paul Atreides is exactly like Anakin Skywalker. Both of them aren't "supposed" to be born. Both have magical powers. Both want to save the universe from itself, but end up as warmongering tyrants. Both realize in the end that they have become monsters and step down to allow their sons to take their place and save the universe.

Gandolf was mostly the Norse god Odin.

How is Dune like the Morte D'Arthur? Arthur is stalked and murdered by his hateful son. Paul guides Leto into becoming the next emperor on the Golden Path. They are nothing alike.

And yes, I really do think Lucas read Dune and thought, hey, this is full of cool ideas and characters and settings, why not use them all in my film? It's not like he picked up on one theme or concept and then created something wholly new and different. He took as many of those concepts as he could fit in his movie.

[xAgonyxScenex]

The truth about The Pirates of the Caribbean and the Matrix is they are BAD movies, written and directed by untalented people(the Wachowski brothers and Gore Verbinski are not top rated filmmakers). It has nothing to do with making two films at the same time. Just look at The Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson managed to deliver three GREAT movies because the right people worked on them.
If Michael Bay wanted to, he wouldn't have any trouble making Transformers 2 and 3 together.

Wow...lets not get crazy. Your entitled to your opinion but wow. You can't compare LotR to The Matirx and Pirates. LotR is based off of the second most read book of all time. It was planned as a 3 part series. Pirates and Matrix were not planned as a 3 part series. I think Pirates did a MUCH better job then the Matrix in continuing a franchise that was never really meant to be more then 1 part.

To say these guys are untalented is asinine though. I suggest you study more film. You'll find truly untalented people who make Gore and the Brothers look like gods.

[uraydo]

I like the end of the last Matrix a hell of a lot better than the last pirate movie.

[raddimus]

A professional writer and editor, huh. Thats cool. I always wanted to be a writer; I just wouldn't even know where to begin... Well Iwouldn't know how to break into the industry. Anyways, back to the subject at hand.You wrote:

Tolkien was trying to create a cosmology that combined his passion for dead languages and cultures with his Christian faith. Herbert was trying to explore real science fiction concepts about age, immortality, prescience, and politics. Lucas wanted to tell an artchetypal story in the vein of his beloved rocket ranger serial flicks. I just think Tolkien and Herbert put a lot more original thought and creativity into their projects.

I agree with this paragraph for the most part. but when you talk about lucas doing his trilogy(And I refer to the original starwars.)to tell an archetypal story in the vein of his beloved rocket ranger is where I disagree. Though rocket ranger did inspire him I watched a documentary recently where he states what he was trying to do with starwars and what he was trying to accomplish.He got the concept of the force; not from magic, but the bhuddist concept of the tao. This is a religion. He was doing exactly doing the same thing as herbert and j.r. did. If I'm remembering correctly he wrote the script for starwars before herbert's novel was even published,though I maybe mistaken.
as for your second paragragh you said:

And Paul Atreides is exactly like Anakin Skywalker. Both of them aren't "supposed" to be born. Both have magical powers. Both want to save the universe from itself, but end up as warmongering tyrants. Both realize in the end that they have become monsters and step down to allow their sons to take their place and save the universe.

I disagree with anakin being like paul. paul was seeking apolitical means to save the universe.anakin only wanted to save the ones he loved,and darth vader just wanted to take over the known universe through military control and as for powers. dune had adrug/poison wich gave vision to two or three people depending on how many novels you read.(No disrespect was intended by statement.) as for pauls witching power it was a voice/mental control power as well as physical;what herbert calls self control/dicipline. the force is in everyone and all around us its in the trees it's in you me,etc. these are both powers or capabilities but much different than eachother and as for being magical,neither was meant to be interpreted in such away.They were more like skills; but I digress. If you are saying they are magic then isn't kinda like merlin/arthurian mythologies?
As for paragraph two you said

Gandolf was mostly the Norse god Odin.

I'm irish my friend and grew up playing d&d and AD&D. I also majored in philosophy which made me take a world religions course. How does the father of the gods relate to gandolph?
As for paragraph four you said:

How is Dune like the Morte D'Arthur? Arthur is stalked and murdered by his hateful son. Paul guides Leto into becoming the next emperor on the Golden Path. They are nothing alike.

Dune and this is a matter of perspective(As is this whole conversation.).But dune is similiar in the sense;...actually your right on this point my friend.I conceede. they are nothing alike in the sense,well they start out similiary in one sense,but ultimatly are not alike in nature. But for the sake of the debat mordrid is calm ,manipulative and calculating,like paul.and didn't always understand or agree with his fathers means to a salvation to a corruption.
As for paragraph five you said:

And yes, I really do think Lucas read Dune and thought, hey, this is full of cool ideas and characters and settings, why not use them all in my film? It's not like he picked up on one theme or concept and then created something wholly new and different. He took as many of those concepts as he could fit in his movie.

I agree with you; that lucas probably did read dune; but plagerizing swivs come on. Maby he was influenced. But stole. Like I originally stated if steeling means being influenced, Than herbert as well as j.r. would be guilty of this...You said in paragraph two:"Tolkien was trying to create a cosmology that combined his passion for dead languages and cultures with his Christian faith." Isn't the bible or the others being stole from,and 500 b.c.(BEFORE CHRIST.)got stories. So My point is; man has been borrowing concepts from every source available and within means of comprehension, from the beginning of time, of man.

I am really enjoying this debate and hope others are as well. You seem like a cool guy or woman/ladie; whichever you prefer. Ilook further to more coolconversations/possible debates. It's good we can also agree to disagree.:)

[raddimus]

I agree... with your overall assesment;

Wow...lets not get crazy. Your entitled to your opinion but wow. You can't compare LotR to The Matirx and Pirates. LotR is based off of the second most read book of all time. It was planned as a 3 part series. Pirates and Matrix were not planned as a 3 part series. I think Pirates did a MUCH better job then the Matrix in continuing a franchise that was never really meant to be more then 1 part.

pirates was a better franchise as well was starwars intent on bieng a trilogy.

"To say these guys are untalented is asinine though. I suggest you study more film. You'll find truly untalented people who make Gore and the Brothers look like gods."

As far as this statement I agree he needs to study film; but Sam Raimi who directed/produced,along with rob tapert and bruce campbell made spidey movies. What does gore got to do with talent but greatness. Sam is one of the most influential directors in the industry and bruce is one of the how do you say cult actors that... If you want anything involving(Not his character but him.)ash he gets it. Gore origins starteded the real science of horror f/x. Agony I like you but couldn't disagree more. Am I starting to sound familiar to you guys; think hard. Sincerely I appreciate all your comments.:o

[siwel]

I'm an all American dude.

Wow, please don't use Dungeons & Dragons and one college class as proof of your understanding of mythology. I studied Germanic and Icelandic primary texts extensively.

Odin as Gandalf: An old man wearing a broad-rimmed hat who wanders the land, stalks through battlefields, and brings with him ill fortune, ill news, and death. Gandalf is called several names, including Stormcrow (Odin is attended by ravens, Gandalf is served by eagles), and Greyhame (Odin is called Grey-beard). Gandalf carries both a magical staff and a war sword; Odin is unique in Norse mythology because he embodies both the feminine realm of magic (seidr) and the masculine realm of war. Gandalf has one of the elves' magic rings, Odin has a magic gold ring. Combine all that with a world filled with Norse creatures like elves and dwarves, and you've got a strong correlation.

Dune was published in 1965. Lucas began writing Star Wars (supposedly) in 1973.

Dune: I've read all the books (by Frank, not his son). And between the spice and the Bene Gesserit breeding program, it seemed that there were countless witches all over the universe with pseudo-psychic powers. The Pilots in the spice tanks were also clairvoyant. Paul was special because he was male and he was super-powerful compared to everyone else.

I know none of them are "magic" but I call anything in literature or film like that magic: holy powers, demonic powers, psychic powers, etc. They're supernatural, if you prefer that term.

And my point about stealing versus borrowing is this: everyone borrows, which means taking someone else's concept or character and then exploring it in a whole new way, but some people steal, which means taking huge chunks of someone else's work and then throwing some fresh paint on it and hoping no one notices.

[xAgonyxScenex]

I agree... with your overall assesment;

Wow...lets not get crazy. Your entitled to your opinion but wow. You can't compare LotR to The Matirx and Pirates. LotR is based off of the second most read book of all time. It was planned as a 3 part series. Pirates and Matrix were not planned as a 3 part series. I think Pirates did a MUCH better job then the Matrix in continuing a franchise that was never really meant to be more then 1 part.

pirates was a better franchise as well was starwars intent on bieng a trilogy.

"To say these guys are untalented is asinine though. I suggest you study more film. You'll find truly untalented people who make Gore and the Brothers look like gods."

As far as this statement I agree he needs to study film; but Sam Raimi who directed/produced,along with rob tapert and bruce campbell made spidey movies. What does gore got to do with talent but greatness. Sam is one of the most influential directors in the industry and bruce is one of the how do you say cult actors that... If you want anything involving(Not his character but him.)ash he gets it. Gore origins starteded the real science of horror f/x. Agony I like you but couldn't disagree more. Am I starting to sound familiar to you guys; think hard. Sincerely I appreciate all your comments.:o

i dont understand your last statement at all. It's either not coherent or i'm missing something. Not sure where Sam Raimi came into all of this. I didn't say Gore and the brothers are some of the best directors out there. Just far far far from the worse.

[raddimus]

I'm an amercanized mutt... and a dude

lmao.We have quite a debate going on between us friend.I think were gonna have to agree to disagree;no hard feelings.You did make some fair assesments,and some valid points about the gandolph,odins relation.
Though odin still strikes me as the father of all gods the most powerful.Where gandolph was never the strong wizard all powerful...He had his moments but he didn't strike me as being particulary like odin.Stalking the battlefeilds as I recall he is always,well nearly always is attempting to fleeing some form of danger with his young friendsWe can find similarities in anything and anyone;but as I originally, I just disagree with your assesments.I won't even begin to debate you on my education.I'm sure friend you are just as educated as myself,the dungeons and dragons and reference to a worlds religion class.were to explain I've gotten my information on norse mythologies from more than one source,I'm was a philosophy major and my uncle actually has a masters in it. so as religous and mythilogical beleifs go I'm well schooled in the subject at hand though I admit I don't know everything on the subject matter at hand,I feel I have backed up,my argument and made just as many valid points as yourself.you almost seem bullheaded in your stuanch refusal to even give an inch.rereading your posts you can see I have been honest and when you made a good point I acknowledged it.you have done no such thing thus far in the debate. You have just attempted over and over again that lucas stole these ideas/plagerised the hell out of a couple of writers..You almost strike me as fanatical in your refusal to see any perspective other than your own.I could go on and on. but as I said I'm not trying to piss you off, so I'll leave it like this. I did personally enjoy this little debate. and maby we could broach another topic as I don't want this to escalate.

on a different note do you have any books written that I might of read. Your not steven king are you.Now theirs a real thief.lol.:D

[raddimus]

You'll find truly untalented people who make Gore and the Brothers look like gods. is what you wrote.

I was just saying gore film makers are talented and the last part was slightly incoherent,lol,I can't even remember what my point was with the statement.:)
I'm with you though it didn't make much sense.

[raddimus]

yhea just ignore that whole statement,lol. it's nearly void of anything intelligent.