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rumblebee505
06-20-2009, 06:30 AM
now to Obamas desk.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress approved a "cash for clunkers" program Thursday to provide government incentives of $3,500 to $4,500 to motorists who trade in their gas guzzlers for more fuel efficient vehicles after Senate Democrats narrowly defeated a Republican effort to kill the plan.

Auto state senators said the program would help hard-pressed car dealers and automakers by bringing buyers into showrooms, and they got help from President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden, who made calls to wavering Democrats urging them to keep the plan alive.

"This is an emergency for families and small businesses -- for an industry that has been the backbone of our economy for a generation," said Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., who sponsored the proposal.

Opponents said it would increase the federal debt without doing much to get expensive-to-operate vehicles off the roads.

Senate supporters of the program overcame a procedural hurdle by the plan's leading opponent, Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., on a 60-36 vote, winning the minimum number of votes needed to keep the program in a $106 billion war-spending plan that the Senate passed later Thursday.

The House approved the cash for clunkers bill last week on a vote of 298-119 and Senate Democrats attached it to the war-spending bill. The overall bill now goes to the White House for Obama's signature.

Four Republicans -- Kit Bond of Missouri, Thad Cochran of Mississippi, Susan Collins of Maine and George Voinovich of Ohio -- voted with two independents and 54 Democrats in favor of the clunker measure, while Democrat Ben Nelson of Nebraska was opposed along with 35 Republicans.

Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., changed her vote to support the vehicle incentive plan and spoke by phone with Obama during the vote.

Cantwell spokeswoman Ciaran Clayton said Obama "acknowledged Senator Cantwell's concerns that the cash- for-clunkers program ... did not do enough to meet our nation's urgent need to reduce foreign oil dependence" and vowed to work with Cantwell and others to "maximize the number of efficient cars on America's roads."

In addition to Cantwell, Obama and Biden reached out to Democrats Patrick Leahy of Vermont, Claire McCaskill of Missouri and Michael Bennet of Colorado, according to two people familiar with the outreach. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

Obama has encouraged Congress to approve the consumer incentives for new car purchases as part of the government's efforts to restructure General Motors Corp. and Chrysler Group LLC. The bill provides $1 billion for the program from July through November.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who supported a plan with more stringent requirements to receive the vouchers, said she received "absolute assurance" from Senate leaders that if the program was continued beyond November it would be modeled after the bill she pushed.

Supporters said the program, which would be implemented by the Transportation Department, was expected to be implemented by early August.

The auto industry and its union lobbied heavily for passage of the cash for clunkers plan as GM (http://autos.yahoo.com/gmc/) and Chrysler (http://autos.yahoo.com/chrysler/) have received billions of dollars in government-led bankruptcies and the entire auto industry has dealt with plummeting car sales. In May, overall sales were 34 percent lower than a year ago.

Under the proposal, car owners could get a voucher worth $3,500 if they traded in a vehicle getting 18 miles per gallon or less for one getting at least 22 mpg. The value of the voucher would grow to $4,500 if the mileage of the new car was 10 mpg higher than the old vehicle. The miles per gallon figures are listed on the car window's sticker.

Owners of sport utility vehicles (http://autos.yahoo.com/suvs/), pickup trucks (http://autos.yahoo.com/trucks/) or minivans (http://autos.yahoo.com/vans/) that get 18 mpg or less could receive a voucher for $3,500 if their new truck or SUV got at least 2 mpg higher than their old vehicle. The voucher would increase to $4,500 if the mileage of the new truck or SUV was at least 5 mpg higher than the older vehicle.

Dealers participating in the program would receive an electronic voucher from the government for the trade-in to apply to the purchase or lease of a qualifying vehicle. The bill directs dealers to ensure that the older vehicles are crushed or shredded to get the clunkers off the road.

The program was intended to help replace older vehicles -- built in model year 1984 or later -- and would not make financial sense for consumers owning an older car with a trade-in value greater than $3,500 or $4,500.

The U.S. industry is expected to generate about 9.5 million vehicles sales in 2009, compared with more than 13 million in 2008 and more than 16 million in 2007.

Associated Press writer Matthew Daly contributed to this report.

The bill is H.R. 2346.

megatron42
06-20-2009, 07:49 AM
i saw that on my local news.. i think it's great you can trade your clunker for cash
for a better car

Z28 Autobot
06-20-2009, 11:43 AM
the bill sounds good in theory but like all things in goverment to many hands in the pot..its not right and its a waste of time..1980's??
Tell me how many 80's cars or older do you see on the road every day? Not many. One reaso nwhy many of the states that do inspections for emmisions they bump the exemption years up since the number of cars to the rule shrinks to the point of not being a factor.

take this into account:
Aren't the Clunkers Really To Blame for Smog?

Not necessarily. A well maintained 10-year-old car can be cleaner than a poorly maintained 5-year-old car. I/M programs recognize that pollution control systems do "age." In most states, older vehicles will not have to pass as stringent a test as newer vehicles. Generally, pre-1968 cars are exempt.

Like I said a good thought in thoery but if someone is driving around in a older car built 20 years ago...think they are going to go buy a new car? no..and if so why are they driving an older car?? They can not afford a new one.

But here is a good take on what I am reffering to:



As our own Richard Read (http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1021351_cash-for-clunkers-finally-movement) reported this morning, there's news from Capitol Hill that the "Cash For Clunkers" legislation is moving forward.
Who could be against a program that speeds up the elimination of bad, evil vehicles, helping bunnies and wild flowers to breath more easily across the globe? As it stands, the idea behind the program would have the Feds (via the taxes paid by working Americans, profitable American companies, and others that get hosed by existing or new taxes) send new car buyers a check in Lee Iaccoca fashion when they buy a new high-mileage car after trading in an older vehicle that gets poor mileage.
Currently, the definitions for mileage and the exact amount of the incentive checks are under debate as the bill moves from the House to the Senate.
Beyond the green (http://www.thecarconnection.com/style/green) arguments for the bill, arguments are being made that it will have a stimulating effect on the automotive sector. While I personally like this kind of argument better than the former, it still feels like another transfer of wealth, but that's another debate altogether.
Unbelievably, there are those opposed to the legislation. Before we get into arguments that oppose the legislation, let's consider a few things; experts generally agree that it takes about 18-20 years for the U.S. national fleet of approximately 225 million registered vehicles to "turn over." For example, technology that is new today will permeate the fleet in about 20 years. Congress wants to accelerate the natural turn over with rebate checks from the Cash for Clunkers program.
Some 11 European countries have similar programs, and one German city is has even instituted rebate programs for bicycles (http://www.transportenvironment.org/News/2009/5/Bike-scrappage-bonus-offered-in-Germany/) (that would go over great in Los Angeles, eh?). The auto portion of most EU programs is similar. In German program, for example, the government offers consumers 2,500 euros (about $3,400 USD) toward the purchase of a new car regardless of the CO2 emissions of the new model, so long as the scrapped vehicle is at least nine years old. The program also permits German consumers to replace a more fuel-efficient older car with a less-efficient newer model.
Like the U.S. proposals, the European-style programs warrent scrutiny. The European Commission staff warned that most EU programs focus on age rather than actual emissions; that the cars collected may simply be resold in other countries; and that the scrapped cars were at the end of their useful lives anyway and worth far less than the subsidy. All good points if the program is supposed to benefit the environment and the economy.
Just like people who bilk the well-intentioned U.S. Welfare programs, Cash For Clunkers may offer plenty of opportunity for people to make money off the system (and remember whose money it is ... yours). Consider just the number from above; there are 225 million registered vehicles in the U.S. That's a lot of cars sitting around not being driven that could be turned in (with no genuine benefit to the environment). The result is that U.S. tax payers would pay to take a practically non-polluting, unused vehicle out of service. I don't see the wisdom in that, but I can't figure out a way to prevent it.
But even before discussion starts on potential ways to scam the program, there are more obvious questions. For example, why would we spend tax dollars to destroy good used cars? Excellent question, especially when these lower-priced cars provide transportation to an entire class of drivers who cannot afford to drive something newer, even with a generous Federal grant. This will decrease the mobility options for a major portion of U.S. drivers. While I write this with a smile on my face, what will illegal aliens drive if the program goes through and the supply of really cheap used cars dries up?
Additionally, the Specialty Equipment Market Association notes the impact the legislation would have on companies that provide parts and service out of warranty vehicles. “Scrappage programs as proposed will also hurt thousands of independent repair shops, auto restorers, customizers and their customers across the country,” said SEMA Vice President of Government Affairs, Steve McDonald. “This industry provides thousands of American jobs and generates millions of dollars in local, state and federal tax revenue. It is time to help the entire auto industry with programs that focus the incentive on the purchase of new vehicles, not destroying valuable old cars and parts.”
Cash For Clunkers programs in Germany and Britian have been popular, and German legislators have actually had to more than double their program's budget. The German program is based soley on a vehicle's age and does not guarantee the vehicle is scrapped. In theory, one could trade in an old Golf diesel (http://www.thecarconnection.com/style/green) for a Porsche (http://www.thecarconnection.com/make/porsche) Caynne and get a check, while the old oil burner gets sold to somebody in the old Warsaw Pack. The net gain to the environment under this scenario is negative.

Real questions need to be asked;

<LI itxtvisited="1">Whether accelerating the turn over of the existing U.S. fleet is actually good for the environment (taking into account the environmental cost of scrapping an old vehicle and manufacturing a new replacement, like the sweetheart of the eco movement, the 2010 Toyota Prius (http://www.thecarconnection.com/modelintro/toyota_prius_2010)) <LI itxtvisited="1">Whether it makes sense for the U.S. budgets to go further into debt to artifically stimulate new car sales
Whether the economic benefit of any bump in new car sales is worth the trade off hit that will be taken by those who do business and/or drive used cars
This is all good food for thought. Yours are welcomed below...


Like I said if the bill had more teeth..I think it would work out better for everyone. This bill..not much your going to see out of it..

rumblebee505
06-20-2009, 12:24 PM
They can have my camaro when they pry the steering wheel from my cold dead hands!:mad:

Z28 Autobot
06-20-2009, 06:38 PM
They can have my camaro when they pry the steering wheel from my cold dead hands!:mad:

lol funny thing is..and this has happened when local goverment passes similar ideas..there are people out there that will go and buy an old car for cheap..one thats been sitting for a while for sale..that old Escort on the side of thier friends house..they go buy it for $150..then register and insure it and then go to the dealer trade it in for the cash for clunkers voucher and get a huge discount on something they want..using a car that was doing nothing..

Drake
06-20-2009, 07:01 PM
The only people eligible for this can't afford a new car anyway...

megatron42
06-20-2009, 08:18 PM
They can have my camaro when they pry the steering wheel from my cold dead hands!:mad:


you tellem bro.. no one touches the bee

Z28 Autobot
06-21-2009, 08:57 AM
The only people eligible for this can't afford a new car anyway...

exactly...